Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Digital Kindness Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Marcinik and I'm glad you're here. Today we welcome Kim Zajak, Creative Educator and communication practitioner. Kim is a certified speech and Language pathologist and audiologist in Massachusetts.
She is an ASCD ISTE Community leader, an educator, mentor for the Vital Prize Challenge, a Leveraged Ed Collective member, an Adobe Creative Educator leader, and a Magic School Ambassador. Oh wait, there is more that Kim does. She is a virtual practicum.
Sorry about that one. She is a Virtual Practicum instructor at Speech at Emerson. Kim is co founder of EdCamp Southeastern Massachusetts, which if you haven't been to an EdCamp, I hope they're still out there. Please get to one. She is an FTC featured speaker and has recently presented at ASU, GSV Airshow, south by Southwest, EDU, ISTE, Mass Q and New York City Schools Tech Summit. Kim specializes in creating programs and sharing learning strategies to support students with diverse learning needs. She is passionate about establishing equitable access and inclusion for for all students. And one of the things I love most about Kim's work is that she really focuses on all the students all the time. And if that wasn't enough of a resume, Kim is also the mother of two daughters. So a very happy early Mother's Day to you, Kim. Welcome to the pod, Kim. That is quite a resume.
We have been friends and connected. We presented together for many, many years and I'm so happy to have you on the pod. And so I'm going to stop talking and just say welcome and I'm glad you're here.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: Oh, thank you so much Andy. It's awesome to be here with you and a pleasure to kind of be able to jam on some of these important topics that we kind of have been tossing around lately.
Every time we get together there's always thought provoking questions asked and some good ideas to take forward.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: Excellent. I agree. And it's so good we connected. I think most recently we were on the masscube Board of Directors together. We recently just, I think this past January presented at FETC down in Florida, which is a great conference if you haven't been there.
And we talked a lot about AI and how it should be mindfully and intentionally brought into schools, but also thinking about how AI is really nothing if all kids can't access it equitably and effectively. And so we're going to get into that part today. But I just wanted to bring that up because again, your work is really instrumental and really everyone out there should follow Kim and what she does. I'll make sure to share all of her social accounts because Kim is really dedicated to the work of making sure there's equitable access for all students. Really working with a lot of diverse learners. Kim has taught me a lot about, you know, is that, is that accessible? Is that website accessible? Is this podcast accessible to many? And when we think about accessibility and using technology, if people aren't accessible, if they're not able to access, access these things, then what are we doing it for? And so again, Kim, great, you're here.
So we're going to get into the. We're going to get into our conversation now. We have some questions, some really hardball questions for you, Kim.
So, like I was.
Like I was mentioning, Kim, your work is guided by access and inclusion for all students. Talk a little bit about how you help students navigate their learning journeys with technology.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's always an adventure. Let me start there. Including my own process and journey for getting to where I am now and the ways that I'm able to help students. I initially, coming out of graduate school, I was a medically based speech and language pathologist for a good part of my career and then made a transition to K12. And that's the space in which I continue to practice. And what was interesting is that I started with just kind of noticing, right? Like when you land anywhere new, you want to sort of notice where you are, who you're with, who you're sharing space with, and what the culture, climate, and practices are, and basically to kind of sum up and inform yourself on what's going well and maybe what are some areas to, you know, to shift or try to move forward in different directions. And so one thing that was pretty shocking was noticing the gap that exists between students brilliant ideas and capacities and their ability to express them. In particular, students with language disabilities or communication disabilities.
So for me, helping students find their learning pathways begins with identifying the barriers, right? So that's the first thing to kind of really look at to appreciate. Who are you with? What is the space in which you're functioning? Like, what are the demands? What are the capacities? What are the already existing supports that exist? What are the belief systems? What are the supports and strategies that can easily be either rolled in or rolled out?
And then from there, it sort of becomes a process of identifying different ways to bridge, right? So taking what does exist, identifying maybe some new tools or innovative strategies and putting them in place to help students get to, you know, the other side of what they're trying to get to without there being so much either breakdown or frustration or, you know, exclusion, even in extreme cases.
And so technology can really be a transformational thing when you look at it through that sort of. That lens of identifying barriers, identifying possible bridges, tools, strategies, and then collaborating and engaging with the students as well as, you know, staff members, teachers in the. In the community that you're working in and inviting. Inviting for people to kind of collaborate, share ideas and try new things, taking some risks by, you know, that process and building in opportunities to also discuss healthy ways to do this and celebrate diversity right along the way.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. That's great.
You talked a lot about. About barriers, and maybe if you could just talk a little bit about, like you're seeing, as far as in the edtech space, you know, I've always tried to promote and think about anything. Anything that we bring to our students should be out of the box, accessible. But I feel like for a lot of our tools and a lot of our students, that's not the case. Is that kind of what you're seeing or has it gotten better as far as a lot of our edtech tools?
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Well, I think that's a really great question.
I think that there is an intention to make progress, and I do think we have. I think we're leaning in that direction.
And I do think that ed tech continues to be designed for sort of the average student, which we know does not exist. An average student is not a real Persona. And so what's really kind of missing is this more robust accessibility that is needed. Right. And that might be, you know, kind of thinking about students with disabilities or language barriers or differences first at the start instead of as afterthoughts. If we design intentionally, from the beginning, instead of needing to retrofit when we're designing and developing edtech tools, that is always preferred. We need these diverse perspectives in order to not have blind spots and biases drive what we are putting out there in the market.
And so this is why I kind of have, in my career positioned myself to be on advisory boards, to be an ISTE community leader, to be part of focus groups and really work with the industry in understanding what are they thinking, what do they think is needed, and then explaining to them how that might work for people in the fringe or at the margins.
And there's a lot of people out there doing this work. Right. It's not just me. I have a lot of. I'm standing side by side with a lot of really amazing people, including a Person who I think you met perhaps at ISTE last year or at another conference, but I'm not sure if you've met Jordan Zimmerman. Have you met Jordan? She's an amazing advocate of people with disabilities. So Jordan was identified and diagnosed with autism at a very young age and was assumed to have intellectual disabilities until she was provided with access to appropriate communication options at the age of 18.
Since then, she went on to earn two master's degrees, and she continues to be an advocate, including speaking at the White House for people with disabilities. And so one thing Jordan has taught me about, you know, sort of the gap process and how it could possibly be narrowed and we could do better things, is that nothing should be designed for people with disabilities or with the intention for people with disabilities to use it without including them in the conversation. Right, right. So the tagline is nothing about us, without us. I love that.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:09:38] Speaker A: Right. It's so powerful and it makes so much sense when you think about that.
And so, you know, I think that there's the need for some more co design processes to be able to really design more holistically and for all learners instead of just the average learner. Um, and I think, you know, I think the other gap that exists, one of the other gaps is sort of like, you know, the things that you focus on, Andy, which is like infusing responsible use, infusing empathy and kindness into the process of learning how to use educational technology for teaching and learning. But also, you know, kind of in life, oftentimes we think about technology and we think like robots, tools, buttons, icons, and we just like, miss the whole human interaction piece.
So I think that that's another really important thing because, you know, it's always the humans doing, you know, doing the using, doing the work.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: And so we need to keep that in there. And one other thing, I know I'm kind of going on and on, but.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: No, no, you're fine, you're fine.
[00:10:43] Speaker A: You know, this is kind of where my brain does. It goes, you know, down a very long trail. But this is a really important question that you asked, which was, what are the gaps that exist? And I also want to say that I think part of what perpetuates these gaps, in particular, this one where we're talking about the human component of learning how to use and implement technology in the process of teaching and learning, is the fact that in the current climate, we're seeing a lot of strains financially and we're seeing a lot of budgets take cuts. Right. And what I've noticed is that one of the first things to get cut from a budget in terms of staffing are tech integration coaches.
And they, to me, are one of the most important pieces of this piece, this gap that exists in assuring that how students actually implement, integrate, and learn to use technologies responsibly and with kindness and good intention and in meaningful ways that extend beyond just the moment they're in or the classroom or assignment they're working on.
It's this person, the tech integration coach, that's really, truly like the kingpin to it all. So there are some gaps and some big questions, and I don't know what the solutions are, but I think we need to be thinking about them.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: No, you bring up so many good points there, Kim. And I just want to kind of focus on the last one a little bit is this idea of the tech coaches.
I find it so troubling that some of the first positions to be cut when it comes to budget cuts is either librarians or tech coaches. And what I say to that is, you need to find a budget for these folks because it's the most important critical skill that our kids need right now. More than anything they need, they need to know how to access and access these tools with an understanding of how to potentially use them and not just sit on them and develop bad habits. I talked a lot with Dr. Adam file with that last week.
The other thing that bothers me is I think there's never been a more important time in our society for information and digital literacy.
You know, we're talking a lot about AI literacy. I see that out there, and I think that's important as well. But I think we haven't really got access to digital and information literacy for all students yet. And then here we are cutting these. These positions that are instrumental in helping kids and faculty understand these. These topics, which are big topics. And, you know, I. I myself started out as an instructional technology coach, and, you know, it was. It was a great experience. I worked at Burlington Public Schools there for.
And I just felt like it was a valuable position to have. And I think all schools should have them.
And it's a shame that they are being cut, but that's the reality of things with school budgets.
You also did mention robots and buttons. So I want to kind of shift to AI for a little bit. And AI is. I'm hearing a lot about it. Like I mentioned, I heard about AI literacy. There was an AI literacy day, you know, a few months ago or maybe a month ago, you know, and I think a Lot of folks are seeing AI as this equalizer and promises to level the digital playing field for a lot of students.
In my own work, I feel like it's. It's been transformational and I want to just every time I find something new. I was just on my last episode, I was talking about how I've been discovering the deep research features of Gemini and ChatGPT, and it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.
So just from your perspective, there's no right answer here, but is this hype or is there potential here with AI in schools?
[00:14:49] Speaker A: I love that question, and I think one of my favorite ways to respond to that is to think about a musician who we all know and probably love, and that's Eric Clapton. And so the answer to the question is it's in the way that you use it.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: Well done. Well done. This episode is brought to you by Eric Clapton Music. Right, Sorry.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: Yeah, because it's so true. It is entirely in the way that you use it. I've seen AI be transformational for students where, again, going back to those bridges that can be created to really provide inroads for understanding and expression that might not otherwise be as full for a student to experience.
But then, you know, we have to also understand that there are some real limitations. In particular that, you know, AI inherently is not equitable. It reflects only its training data and the designer's intentions and biases. So.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: You know, again, it goes back to sort of that co design, the need for people to kind of work together, for lots of people to be at the table of discussion and being part of what the data and the purpose of the design and what the intentions of the tool are so that we can avoid some of that, the biases, the blind spots, and to make sure that everybody's being fully seen in the process.
I think another thing to think about when thinking about the, you know, is this a magic wand? What is the potential here is that it depends on how, you know, how people are looking at the value of AI if it's used and approached as a collaborative partner rather than a replacement. I think that there's a lot more possibility. The depth is really there.
A lot of people think about AI as sort of like an efficiency tool only. And yeah, sure, you can use AI to make your task list more efficient and to get yourself some more time to do whatever you'd like to do. But that's true for students too. If we teach students how to use AI in responsible, meaningful ways, we can help them free up some of those sort of the time spent on more mundane tasks and free up their mind for higher order thinking and more creative processes, you know, so I think that that's really an important thing to think about. Yeah, you know, I think it also, I think it also is going, we're probably at the worst point with what we can do with AI than, you know, than we probably ever will be in the future because there are initiatives happening where, you know, guidance is on the way. Right. But it's been a little bit challenging as of late. We had some guidance from the federal level, you know, last year, but now, you know, that's kind of gone to the wayside. And I know states are working really hard to kind of provide more guidance on a local level as to, you know, what can be done to help leverage AI in the most positive ways possible.
And even in, you know, in Massachusetts, we just had some guidance come out last month in April. And so that's, you know, being digested now. And I think everybody's really pleased to have received that because it gives, gives districts on even a more local level something to sink their teeth into and to, you know, kind of start to get the ball rolling to, to do the necessary things like teacher pd.
[00:18:18] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree with that. And I, I, I think you're right. I think it's, I think the guidance has been coming. So there are some states that were early, I know Washington state and a couple others were out of the gate early.
But even if they're early, I mean, a lot of this stuff has changed and evolved since then, you know, and it's, I think one of the important things you said and what I like to kind of think about AI is that collaborative partner. I mean, that's how I use it. I'm not using it to get the assignment done quickly. I'm doing it because, you know, when you're, anytime you're doing research or when I write a blog post, I want to be sure that I'm bringing in the right resources or bringing in the, you know, I'm doing everything how I can or maybe finding this really good example of a school doing amazing stuff that I'm talking about. And an AI has a lot better, more efficient way of finding that information than I do just poking through Google and trying to get through all the ads. And so I think that's where AI could be really powerful for our students. As if you think about whether it's the writing process or the research process being that guidelines that can help and assist the student, but it also help and assist the teacher who has a million and one things on their plate on any given day.
If you said, like, I can bring another person in the room, but it's not a person, it's, it's, it's a, it's a one to one experience for every student. And that student's going to have this equitable experience through say, the research process or the writing process. That's a, that's a game changer. And that's where I think it gets back to your work, where we're talking about equity and access and, and it's not just, you know, a handful of students getting one to one help from the teacher. It's a lot of students. Every student in that class getting that kind of help.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And without delay. I think that's an important thing is, you know, class sizes. We know that, you know, that's oftentimes a challenge in the ratio of teacher to student. Sometimes there's a lot of wait time that a student may not be able to move forward with their learning if they're, you know, just waiting for the teacher to have the right moment to get back to them. So AI can be a real wonderful resource and thought partner to those students in the in betweens. Right. So the teacher's still coming back around to touch base, but instead of sort of just spinning, you know, buffering, not really doing anything in that wait time, the student can be getting some valuable feedback from an AI, you know, maybe a uniquely designed and thoughtful chatbot that the teacher, you know, is basically has created as sort of like a placeholder, but, but a dynamic placeholder.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I think you're right, though.
We are at the worst part of the AI for students right now. And I'm excited to see where this goes. I think it's only going to get better. But you also did mention a really good point, is that I think we really need to. Before we start throwing kids into having chatbot assistance and all these things, we really need to be mindful and intentional about teaching kids around the biases that are within these, these responses. Because it's not all, it's not all first hits.
And I think it's important, and it's important skill. If kids can be. We talk about inquiry learning all the time. If kids can be really, really good and really succinct with their, their prompt generation, I think that can be a really exciting skill set that kids can take with them, and it can take them in a lot of great directions, but not without having that, that ethical Grounding and those guide rails to ensure that, you know, you're not always going to get the right answer on the first prompt and you may have to revise or regenerate your prompt a little bit. And I've had to do that many times myself. So, yeah, it's a fascinating space to be in, but I think we're right at the tip of it where it could go. And I look forward to seeing this conversation play out, especially in the work you're doing.
But just kind of building off of AI and access to devices.
There's a lot of conversations in schools right now centered around student well being. I know this is a space that we talk about a lot and cell phone bans in school.
What are you seeing in regard to this topic as far as, you know, the health and wellness of our students and how screens and how phones in schools are impacting them day in and day out?
[00:22:42] Speaker A: Well, I'm glad you brought this up. It's a great area of discussion. The social, emotional well being of our students is of the utmost importance right now. They're under a great deal of strain for lots of different reasons and it's a different world than the one I grew up in when I was, you know, a K to 12 learner. In particular, challenging for our teens.
But I think what I have come to understand is that blanket approaches rarely work.
It's important that students are supported to have focus and access to learning opportunities within their learning environment. But it's also important that we're allowing access to the necessary tools at the right times. For some students, access to technology, and that doesn't necessarily mean phones, but sometimes it can, or a padlet or some kind of tablet rather, or an iPad is essential for academic success and even social, emotional well being. You know, there's apps like Headspace and things that can just take a five minute, you know, interval of time from a student to reset and get them back on track. So I think, I think there's a lot to be considered in terms of bands versus sort of teaching how to use digital technology and, you know, devices in ways that are positive. And to that end, focusing and elevating our students to do more creating than consuming. I think the consumption process with technology is the one that we identify as sort of the waste of time, the brain rot, the things that get in the way of accessing real deep learning opportunities. So I think that we kind of need to make a shift in mindsets as well. We have to model what digital creativity looks like and show students that Channel because I think that there is a lot of social modeling of consumption. There's a lot of faces and phones, there's a lot of time on Snapchat and Instagram and Facebook. And I think we need to kind of show students the alternate route. Right. And through that process of diving into creativity using devices, it opens opportunity to explore things like empathy and kindness and thoughtful use of technology, you know, with guidelines and frameworks that, you know, gives them a little bit of freedom with devices, but also some clear parameters and criteria. Right. And constraints to work within, including ethical guardrails and responsibility and that sort of thing.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I think when bringing technology into schools or kids are getting technology in schools for the first time, I think there definitely needs to be some scaffolding of when they access certain things and how they access it, whether that's elementary school or middle school. I think a lot of schools, what they're struggling with right now is that a short five years ago we were all in this pandemic where technology, which is thrown in kids faces and they experienced all of their day, their friends, their games, their fun, their school. Everything was, was done on a screen for all of us, for many of us. And I think we all came out of that with, with bad habits around technology, both at home and in school, you know, and I, I myself, I, I have to step back every now and then and like assess my, my own use because I'm like, you know, what did I pull my head up from the YouTube algorithm or, or, or TikTok, which is, you know, I just need to stop with the TikTok because it's just, you know, they just need to ban it already or do whatever they need to do. But it is this, this, this kind of endless, this endless hole, this rabbit hole of just endless content. And I think you're, you're, you, you hit on it with, it's like we need to shift the focus. You know, how many times have I pulled my head up from something on YouTube or I was saying to Adam last week, I end up going down the Carl Hooker Adam file algorithm. And I'm just like in all these videos of Carl doing stuff and ipadapalooza and stuff like that, and I pulled my set up and I'm like, why am I not doing stuff? I just wasted all this time. I could have been creating something, I could have been writing something. And so I think that's where I started to just kind of reflect. I've done a lot since, you know, it was one of the reasons I wrote Teaching Digital Kindness was that it was a huge reflection point on, on many things that happened prior to the pandemic and then during the pandemic and then coming out on the other side of that and trying to navigate technology in the same way we did, you know, and I think, I think schools, for the most part, they, I think, I think schools, some of them understood and learned and took the learnings from the pandemic and did really well, but I think some of them just returned to business as usual, not for their own fault, whether it was budget or whatever. But I think a lot of schools need to think about reassessing their one to one programs or looking at scaffolding their technology throughout K through 12 in order to really, you know, I think get the promise of what technology can be for all students.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: So it's a really good point. And I think another point to be made is the fact that self regulation is a, is a higher order skill. It's really hard to sort of slow oneself down to identify, you know, what emotions am I feeling and am I continuing, am I stopping?
And when the faucet is turned on full blast the way it is sometimes with digital consumption, that makes self regulating and stepping back or stepping away or putting the phone down all the more difficult for our developing brains. Right. As an adult, right. That's difficult for me. But for a child who's 8 or 5 or 13, their brains are still developing. And so that is just to me a demand that is beyond their capacity. And so that's why adults in the room need to kind of put the guardrails together for them and break down instruction and lessons into increments, right. Of time and minutes, you know, constraints of, you know, yes, you can do this, no you can, we're not going to do that. And then that should be a, a sort of a, a progressive thing that increases over time that, you know, the range and depth and the independence with which students use their technology should, should be on a trajectory. Not just here you go, right from the beginning.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: Right. And I, you bring, you bring up some really good points there too. Because like, I, I remember I had a, I had a parent ask me once about, they're like, oh, well, shouldn't we give these kids a pass? I mean, like, we all grew up in the 80s and we just sat in front of the TV and you know, we all turned out fine. And I'm like, yeah, I agree. We all sat in front of the TV and I, I played my Nintendo Entertainment System until I couldn't play it anymore. Trying to beat the next level and whatnot. Whatnot. But the difference is, is that it had. The stories I was watching on TV had a beginning, middle, and an end. The movie that I was watching had a beginning, middle, end. I just didn't have like, the access to content is so unbelievable anymore. And I think there's a whole generation. I mean, I grew up in a time where I still had a. I had a rotary phone in my house and I. It had made the like electrical spark that went up through the copper lines and then, you know, didn't go to space. It went actually end physical lines and went to the next house. And, you know, and now I'm here and you know, I have a headset in my house and I have, you know, AI everywhere. So it's, it's just an interesting thing where it's like, you know, we won't, Kids won't understand this idea of like how you just. It's on, everything is on demand. And it's, it's really causing this kind of, this issue around attention deficit in this country where none of us, no, not one of us have the ability to focus and spend a few minutes. Like, I wonder how many people listen to this podcast and they'll see the clip that I post on Instagram be like, oh my God, that was so cool. I love that. And then they'll be on to the next thing and they won't even dive into like minute 30 where we really just start talking about the good stuff.
[00:31:13] Speaker A: Or they'll watch it and they'll turn the speed up because there's a million things on there on their agenda for the day. And so that's great to be able to do that. I think we all, we all do that from time to time. But then we need to think about what was the impact of that. What happens when you speed up and the urgency is accelerated? What happens to the processing? Are we skipping steps? Are things being glossed over? And so we have to think about that for our students as well. You know, less is more.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: It is. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's an important point to end on this question on is also the conversations, not just with the students, but bringing parents into the conversation. You know, as a parent yourself, I'm sure you've experienced it where it's like the technology between home and school is one thing, but then there's another form of tech. There's a personal technology between home and school, especially as the kids get older.
And that's an Uncontrollable thing that schools don't have the ability to regulate. And so that's another issue that I think is a whole other podcast topic. I'll have you back on the show for that someday, Kim. We can spend an hour talking about that and solving the problems, but I want to kind of shift gears again just as we're kind of getting to the end of this. But you've seen and experienced technology being a game changer in the educational lives of your students.
How do you feel technology serves them beyond the classroom? When your kids leave, do you see them. How do you see them kind of using the technology that was provided to them?
You know, how do they. How do they throw? How are they thriving with it?
[00:32:50] Speaker A: I think a lot of the times they.
I think they would like to thrive and be able to, you know, implement what they're learning at school, at home, but they are the learners in their landing home, where the adults in the room, the caregivers, the parents, don't necessarily have the same level of understanding. Right. And so I remember back in a, you know, earlier days when, you know, digital citizenship was a big thing and screen time was a big thing. This is like way pre pandemic. And there used to be, I feel like, more outreach to parents and families, right, and trying to educate beyond the walls of the schoolhouse, but, you know, to the greater, you know, world, you know, the community inside, at home and then beyond even, you know, thinking at scale to like, what do you want to be when you grow up? And how does technology play a role in that? So I think that, you know, you know, then pandemic happened, and there was a lot of. A lot of things happening from that. There was some residual exhaustion and burnout and, you know, on all sides for educators, for students, for parents. And I think we're now just kind of, you know, you know, rebounding from some of that. And I think what we're looking at now is possibly an opportunity to fire that back up that partnership, you know, sort of take advantage of the. The missed opportunity and pull in some these crucial partners, really, the parents, caregivers, and folks at home to support their students, to be able to take the technologies that they're using and using well at school and be able to, you know, sort of shift and transfer that to other aspects of life and to think about, you know, think about technology that you're using at school less as sort of like a compliance process and less box checking and more, you know, about, you know, what are some new ways of Thinking, what are ways to connect and create with this? I mean, my own, you know, my own life. My kids and I, we were on a trip a couple years back, and we were in France, and my daughter, you know, we were in the back of a taxi, and there, you know, there were some strikes going on, and with the sanitation department, and, you know, there was protesters, and, you know, our taxi driver was getting a bit upset. And so my daughter knew right away about the translation feature on an iPhone, and so she kicked her into gear. And we then all were very aware of what was on the driver's name. And so, to me, I was really happy to see that, because I was thinking to myself, well, if I wasn't in this cab with her, right. If this was my daughter in a few years, when she's out traveling the world on her own, this is question mark, a safety concern. And so for her to be able to take what she knew about technology from her experiences at school and implement it in the back of the cab or the taxi in a foreign country where a language is being spoken that she didn't understand, to me, that's pivotal. That's important. That's just one example. But I think there's a lot that can be said there for safety, and there is also a lot that we can take forward when we think about leveraging the technology in positive ways at scale, and really democratizing what its capacities are for all learners, for all people in the world.
[00:36:01] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I mean, that's. That's the goal, right? I mean, your daughter knows how to encounters a situation where the technology helps her connect to the world that she's in. And I think that's a. It's a beautiful thing when that all, you know, comes together. And I think that's. That's what we want to see our kids doing with technology day in and day out, you know?
[00:36:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:25] Speaker B: All right. This has been fun. We have one final question, though. Okay.
It's the hardest question in the world, and it's something that everyone struggles with.
You know, it's very controversial. No. So I asked this question on. I asked this question to every guest on the show. What strategies do you use to step away from the digital world?
[00:36:49] Speaker A: Okay. So I.
I will usually dive into something that's highly creative.
So, you know, it might be something centered around, like, drawing or painting or even photography. I'm very random where I like to, you know, use my. I don't really use my camera, although I have a fancy camera. I mostly use my phone because I have it, which is ironic to this conversation, but I guess it does prove the point that a human being can shift the way they're using technology to be either more or less about consume versus create. Um, and the other thing that I like to do is, you know, to be active outdoors, to run, to bike, and sometimes combining those things, you know, running and biking, taking time to take pictures in those spaces and just, you know, enjoying time with my family.
That's how I step away from.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: That's how you step away. I love it. I love it. By. By creating in some, you know, very analog kind of feel, old school methods. We got a different, different term from that old school. And I'm kind of over that. I think that term needs to change. I'm highly offended by it. So maybe there can. Maybe there can be a new EO to dismiss the. The term old school.
Kim Zajak, it has been a pleasure and an honor to have you on this podcast. I look forward to following your work. Please, everyone follow Kim Zajak on all the socials. She does amazing work and she presents at all amazing conferences. Kim, thank you again.
[00:38:21] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Andy, it's been a pleasure.
