Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Digital Kindness Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Marcinik, and I'm so glad you're here.
Today we welcome Phil Hintz to the pod. Phil is a good friend of mine. We've been connected for quite some time, about 10 years.
I'm going to start going by going over Phil's amazing resume, and then we're going to get into some really good conversation today on the pod. So Phil's completing his 32nd year in public school education and currently serving as the Chief Technology Officer for Niles township School District 219.
This is just outside Chicago, Illinois. So Phil is a close neighbor of our newly elected Pope Leo, who we've been trying to get him on the pod. I don't know, he's pretty busy right now. But, you know, we'll see if he's ever up for us. A White Sox game. Phil, let me know.
In June of 2015, Phil was the recipient of ISTE's Outstanding Leader of the Year. This took place in Philadelphia, which I was there for.
In 2016, Phil made the list of National School boards Association Top 20 to Watch in Educational Technology for 2016.
In 2017, Phil Hearn helped his school district earn the coveted ISTE Distinguished School District Award, which is a tremendous award and a tremendous credit to Phil's work in his district.
In 2019, Phil was chosen for the Withrow CTO of the Year by the Consortium of School Networking or otherwise known as cosin. Most recently, Phil won the Tech and Learning Magazine Innovative Leader Award for Best Implementation of Data privacy, is currently pursuing his PhD in educational administration and is writing his dissertation on the impact of use of AR and VR with students with intellectual disabilities in attaining life and occupational skills. Phil, I can't wait to hear about this part as well. This is really great, really amazing work.
And finally, Phil's research was recently featured in Tech and Learning magazine, highlighting the power of the Metaverse for inclusive education.
Okay, Phil, with that, Phil's a great friend and a fellow Star wars nerd.
We've both been to Skywalker Ranch in a previous life. So, Phil, welcome to the pod. I'm so glad you're here.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: I am so glad to be here and I'm honored and privileged to work with you.
You read my resume. But hey, dude, you've got a super impressive resume, too. I'll never forget learning about you and your initiatives. You know, working for the Federal Office of Educational Technology back in the day under Obama, which must have been a blast.
I definitely want to know More about it. I mean, you and I have talked about it, but yeah, yeah, that's where I first got to know you a little bit. I'm like, wow, you know, so, yeah, get a chance to do it together here. So let's do it.
[00:03:05] Speaker B: Phil.
I think we have an offshoot pod that we're just going to talk about our amazing accomplishments for 30 minutes a day and then just everyone can listen to how amazing we are. So.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: How amazing we are, how amazingly lucky we are.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Really, very much so. I agree. We are very lucky to be where we are. And, you know, I'm, I'm always appreciative of the network that I've built through social media, through. Through digital tools like Twitter back in the day and all these different conferences that we attend. And I agree we've had. We've been the beneficiaries of being very, very lucky in this space. So. And I'm just great grateful to be here with you today, Phil. So we are going to jump into some questions. We've got a slate of questions today. So, Phil, you've spent your career, you know, 32 years in schools, and specifically the IT side of things. Can you talk about how your work impacts students access to technology?
[00:04:01] Speaker A: Sure. I think it's probably one of the most important things I do in ed tech because, you know, just, I mean, for years we wanted the opportunities to. And when I say years, I'm talking back in the 90s, right, right. Where we, you know, wouldn't it be great if we had more than one computer in this, in the whole school, you know, and, oh, wow, we can start to network these things together. And then. But it was never enough. You know, we always needed, we always wanted the opportunity to have, have more. And then eventually we had cows. Right. Computers on wheels with the carts. But even that wasn't enough. And, you know, just like you and I probably growing up, we loved it when, when the teacher brought in the, the TV with the VCR on it, you know, hey, something cool was going to happen today. Something different than the normal grind. Right. And so in the 90s or in the early 2000s, that, that, that thrill was the cow, right?
Computers on wheels. So you, you only had 15, maybe in a cart, and you had 30 kids in a class. So still wasn't enough, you know, and when we realized, budget wise, we were always able to afford like one device for every three kids in our school district. And, and then the iPad came out.
The iPad came out and it was literally one third the cost of a Laptop.
And we realized, hey, three to one now we can be one to one. So, you know, we said, but is an iPad a computer? Well, you know, I think the jury is no longer out on that anymore. But at the time it was, you know, it was very pioneer ish. But we wanted to see. And at least now we finally had a device in everybody's hand.
So there's that digital, digital divide hopefully conquered at least for our school district, but you know, other school districts, not the case, not all the time. Right. And then. But does everybody have online access at home? So that was the next digital divide. Right. And we've been trying to conquer that. Luckily the government and of course pandemic kind of forced that issue down the road.
The school district I work for right now literally was the first one to one netbook district in the country, basically. And they did netbooks back in the days before the iPad, before the Chromebook, you know, and yeah, so now, now we're chromebooks in the district I'm at now. But in my former district with iPads, it was, it was definitely the game changer. We saw teachers actually reversing their, their ideas of retiring because they finally, we finally achieved a place where they could teach digitally and use the tools they wanted and have all the kids participate in that digital ecosystem. And so it was a huge game changer. But we've come a long way since then. I think you and I have talked about the next digital divide is the have and have nots of AI and the paid for versions of AI versus the non paid, the free versions of AI.
Do you get better results on the paid for version than you do?
So I know we have to conquer that next.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and that's all. And definitely. I just want to kind of go back to a few things there. You mentioned I haven't heard cow in a while. I haven't heard that term. But yeah, that was when I first started teaching. We had cows in our classroom computers on wheels. And yeah, you're right. I mean, and it was also, I think, you know, we talked about access too. And this is something I talked with Kim Zajak last week as well. And it's not just about having the device. I mean, I think a lot of schools, I used to kind of call it airdrop technology where we just got technology into classrooms. And then we took a picture with the superintendent and it was in the paper and it's like, hey, look it, we got all these, all these devices. And I think the thing that was missing there and the Big divide was the teacher support, teachers understanding how to leverage the device. And I think we've come a long way with that.
And I think we saw that. I saw that at iste. I saw that recently at FATC this past year, where teachers are doing amazing things with incorporating and teaching around AI. And to think of where, you know, I see kids come into a classroom, they put their laptop lit up and they would just type in a Word document. And that was, that was edtech. That was technology implementation. So we have come a long way. And I also agree with.
I remember when the iPad was announced and I was actually, you know, I'm, you know, you know me, I'm a big Apple fanboy. You can see in the background all my gadgets. There's. But I was out on the iPad. I was like, I don't know how this is gonna work. And then when they started working on a prototype for the iPad2, I started looking at it and I said, okay, this is a game changer. This is really gonna help get a device in the hands of every kid. And I think that's really, it's really helped. Kind of like you said, kind of.
We have work to do on the divide, but we made great strides with lowering the cost. And then you had Chromebooks continu continue that on.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: So, you know, you mentioned the iPad2. So, so when we did go one to one iPads, it was iPad2. But what was interesting is the iPad2 came out in April, I think, of 2011, something like that. And we had ordered a bunch of them for this is before we decided to go one to one, but we ordered a bunch. We had, we had some ell monies that we needed to. To spend before the end of the year. He said, okay, let's. So we ordered 200 of the iPad twos, knowing that they wouldn't get there in time before school got out. But so I said, you know what, let's take advantage of this opportunity. We took the 200 that we got in.
That's obviously when the app store first came around and we realized, oh, hey, there's an app for that type of thing. But the advantage that we took, as we said to the teachers, you know, obviously the kids are gone for the summer, but teachers, guess What? We have 200 iPads. If you'd like to take an iPad home for the summer, we'll fit you out with an iPad for the summer. And the only thing you got to do is you got to come to an hour training to show you how an iPad works what it does, what can it do? And then you have to give us five app reviews by the end of the summer in curricular areas so that we can build up kind of a knowledge base on what was, what are good apps that we should be putting on that are going to be useful for the following year. So teachers got extremely excited about it. We called it the iPad experiment, basically.
And they did, and they got over the summer and they got well versed on how an iPad works. And that's what. Just where they started firing on all cylinders and thinking of all the possibilities to the point where the next school year came along. And, and that was when our lease was up for our normal laptops that we had. And that's why we chose to dive into the iPads. But the reason we chose to dive in and go one to one and all in on it is because our teachers said after that summer they were like, hey, how can we get more iPads? They started asking the parent teacher organization, can we have some money for an iPad? We want more iPads. You know, and we just saw that everybody was wanting more and more iPads. So yeah, we, we went all in.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I love that approach because I also think we're, we're kind of here, we're kind of there with, with AI right now.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: Right?
[00:11:36] Speaker B: We're kind of in that, like, hey, we don't need to. Everybody doesn't. Every teacher doesn't need to be proficient in AI. Every, every school administrator doesn't need to know, but like, you know, leverage some time in the summer, you know, attend a webinar or a workshop or you know, just, just try it out on your own and see how you like it. I mean, honestly, like, I didn't take a course on AI, but I, I've just, I. But I mean, you, you and I were kind of like, natively tinker. We, we tinker with things and I want to know how things work. And so that's been my learning with AI. It's been my learning with the iPad and the ed tech world and all of those spaces. And so I think that's, that's a great way to talk about it.
Taking something that we've learned from. You've implemented with an iPad way back when and that can still is. Is relevant today and how we change the device, we change the system, but the approach still remains the same. So I really like that, Phil. Thank you.
So with a lot of conversations, I mean, it was hard last summer or even this fall as kids are going Back into school, into the 24, 25 school year. A lot of the conversations centered around cell phone bans in schools.
What's been your approach to this kind of hot topic and what are you seeing as a result?
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Well, in my role as cto, I'm also, you know, the innovator guy.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: Excuse me. So it's like, you know, I'm always trying to promote things. Obviously, we tried to be on the, I wouldn't say cutting edge, but really against banning, you know, even AI for that matter.
Right to the point where I want to embrace it. I want to embrace the possibilities, really. That's really. And the opportunities.
And we feel the same way with cell phones, however. We do. You know, we're quite aware and our teachers are quite aware that it's becoming a competing factor in them trying to deliver instruction. Now, some teachers have been great about incorporating a cell phone into, you know, into some of their lessons, you know, like pull everywhere, for example, just easy ways to check for understanding.
But most teachers found it to be more of a distraction. And we were like, but we don't want to ban it. And our parents don't necessarily want to ban it. Sometimes that's the only communication device that they have to their students in emergency possibilities, you know. And so we came up with kind of a line of. And an understanding as opposed to pulling the devices completely away.
Our line was no cell, bell to bell.
So, yeah, you can have it and you can have it in, you know, during the school day. And for the most part, the teacher sets the tone. And if the teacher says no cell, it's no sell. But with the understanding that sometimes the cell might be the thing we need is that tool, that extra tool beyond the Chromebook. I mean, yeah, we're one to one Chromebooks, but there's some things that you can do on a device, on an even more mobile device than you, you can on a Chromebook. So we, we didn't want to take away that, that opportunity.
And the feedback has been pretty good. I will say our governor, Governor Pritzker in Illinois was very, very progressive. You know, we have a neighbor state, Iowa, just set the law for cell phone banning, if you will, and, and Governor Pritzker is kind of getting that same way. So we are going to get some legislation, but we try to be ahead of that legislation by imposing our own kind of rules, and not necessarily rules, but our own culture about it. And we're hoping that it will fall into line with the legislature that he's trying to propose, because the feedback has been positive in terms of, and even positive from the kids that they're like, wow, I had no idea I was on my cell phone that much, you know, and how addicted they were in a lot of ways.
So phone's ringing over here, so the perfect timing, right?
But yeah, and so they are, you know, we are getting good, positive feedback from even to the point where a couple of kids have, have come to the board meetings and expressed that, you know, I think my grades have actually improved a little bit now that we've put these many rules in place. Not a ban, but a rule, you know, positive usage of it, I guess.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, and I think that's, I think that's the right approach. I think, I think the word ban gets thrown around too loosely. And, you know, ban was one of the reasons why I started, I thought about teaching digital kindness and what I wanted to do because I kept thinking like, well, if we're banning things, if we're taking things away, then we're assuming that they don't exist because the kids get them at the end of the day or they get them when they're not in school, which is also on the weekend or at nights. And so, you know, I think, I think I like the way you've approached it where you're looking at more of, you're taking more of the guardrails approach. Like, yeah, we have this expectation amongst all of us, this norm that we're all going to abide by. And I think the most interesting data point that you mentioned, and I'm hearing this a lot, and I see this a lot, is that kids know they're in, they're sucked into these things. They know that they are being manipulated into being on their device as much as they can.
You know, somebody once told me about, like, it's like, oh, you think Apple and Google would really put, you know, parental features and, and screen time things on their phone that they really wanted you not to be on your phone? It's like, it's, it's all kind of like this, this gamified gimmick. And we're all part, we're all in the game and we're just part of it. And so I think that's a really interesting point you bring up of students kind of coming, stepping back, reflecting, saying, hey, my grades are better or I feel better or I, I don't feel like I'm missing out on things. And I think that's a, that's the right approach because bands in the same, same sense can do the opposite thing, right? They can, kids can wonder like, oh my gosh, what's on my phone, what's on my phone? But if we're teaching kids to like, hey, there's a time and a place for a phone. There's a time balance. Exactly. And finding that, that healthy balance I think is, is key. So.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: And we got to do the same thing as adults, right? We got them 100.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Well, yeah, yeah, we have, we have them all. And I, you know, I have a one year old daughter now, 16, she'll be 17 months. And you know, I see the way she sees a phone and I mean it's like this, it's like if for young kids, it's, it's magic, right? Because you push something, something happens. The screen, the colors and it's just, you know, I mean that's what I thought TV was, but I couldn't, you know, actually touch TV and make it go.
I just had to sit back passively. But no, you're right. I think it's, I think from all ages we need to be really mindful, both in schools and at home about how we're giving kids phones and access to technology. So yeah, so I want to kind of go back. I'm really excited to hear about your work, your PhD work.
I think this is really fascinating stuff and I think it's really important work because, you know, I worked in a, my first job was in a special needs classroom and it was way before we had one to one technology. And we were helping kids get jobs and learn life skills to go out there and function so that they could have jobs and be a part of society as they should. So you're currently researching use of AR VR XR tools to enable neurodiverse students to become more included in their classrooms and develop life and occupational skills. Again. This is something this true very close to my heart. Can you tell me a little bit more about this work and just like how it's going, what you're, what you're, what you're focused on?
[00:19:36] Speaker A: Well, part of it was, you know, starting the road of dissertation, especially later in my career. As you mentioned, I've been in it 30 some years and finally a place where I, it's something I want to do for myself, number one.
Number two, I've got two of my kids who have their master's degrees now and so they have the, they're at the same level as dad now, so it's like, okay, I gotta raise the bar.
And so I went back to school you know, to do the PhD thing, and.
And then, you know, when they're telling you, okay, well, you gotta write this dissertation, and, you know, you're gonna be living with that for the next couple of years. It better be something you like. And so, yeah, I. I started thinking, yeah, obviously, I love technology. I love the possibilities. They are. In VR, you and I have gone back and forth. I've learned so much from you on the Apple Vision Pro, which I think is really where things are going.
You know, there was some. Some debate for a while there that, oh, well, VR was a fad and it's going away. Yeah, actually, I think it's just getting started. You know, especially when you add in the layer of AI into it.
The possibilities are absolutely endless. And so those possibilities, I started thinking about it, and I have a personal, you know, passion, I guess you could say, because I have a son with special needs. My son, Joshua is. Is about to be 22 years old, so he's about to age out of the transition program. So that's post high school.
And, you know, the federal laws, they get to be taught until age 22.
And he has down syndrome. And I got to thinking one day, he. He has always wanted to be a firefighter. He could tell you all the different fire trucks that are out there. He could tell you all the different.
The tools that fire. Fire folks use, what they're used for, what the different trucks are used for, and their equipment, you name it. I got to think of, well, if he wanted to be a firefighter, would they ever let him be a firefighter? He's developmentally delayed, quote, unquote, you know, so he's a little slower on the uptake. And in an emergency situation, oh, boy, you know, you need to be quick on your feet. And I thought, well, with VR, he could learn how to fight a fire. He could actually get hurt fighting fire.
In VR, he could get burned. And that would be a great way to learn how not to get burned without the physical ramifications of actually getting burned. You know, in VR, if it's a virtual burn, it's not really a burn. Right. I mean, but he could be in those situations and get. And practice and practice those skills, that maybe after enough practice, if they were to run him through the drills to become a fireman, that maybe he'd have the skills that he would need, that they would trust him to help out and maybe pulling the hoses or whatever, you know, and actually be a fireman in a certain capacity. And I thought, wow, what an advantage that that would provide for my son who, who wants to live his dream. Just like every other son and daughter out there in the world, they want to live out their dreams no matter what their abilities are. And so the other thing I kept thinking about and the reason I've studied, I'm studying AR&VR in particular augmented reality, virtual reality. And there's, I've done my review of literature. There's a. It's been, been around since the 90s. I mean actually it's been around for even longer. But really they started putting their fingers on it research wise. 1994, guy by the name of Paul Milgram designed the virtuality continuum, which actually starts with reality, where we're in right now, to the point where you augment reality with some sort of technical technological device, a cell phone, iPad, a camera of some sort, to the point where you eventually evolve and move into full virtuality where nothing around you is real, it's completely virtual.
So there's a, you know, there's a combination and I got the thinking or I. What I understand is AR and VR allow the abstract to kind of become more concrete for folks. That's part of the research that's out there.
And my dissertation share literally.
She said, well Phil, you know, that's too broad of a topic. AR or VR, you're gonna have to choose one or the other. And what I've learned, it's not one or the other. It's not a one size fits all. There are some kids that can't handle having the headset on their head.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:24:10] Speaker A: With the cyber sickness and all of that that it's called, you know, basically motion sickness with a virtual device.
Some kids can't handle that. So AR they could handle because they can still see their, their, you know, reality along with the augmentation of that reality would work great. On the other hand, there are some kids that maybe don't have fingers. Maybe they don't have the dexterity. They may not even have hands or arms.
VR, AR is not going to work for them. But all of a sudden they put a VR device on them and now they look in front of them, they have their hands, they have their fingers, they have their arms, they have parts that might have been a disability to them in real life are now an ability for them in virtual life.
So the VR part, I told you the story of my son with a fire.
But on the AR side about that same time, when I started down the path of this research, my son had turned 18 and he was eligible to vote in his high school. His high school was up for a referendum, a funding referendum, and he wanted to go vote yes for the referendum. And I got to thinking, well, he's got a second grade reading level.
How's that going to work? Is he going to be able to even read the ballot?
See, how is he going to make an informed decision?
I was like, how does it work? So we went to the polling place because he was eligible to vote. He was the right age. Right. And everything, and had a voter card.
And what they told me is that, yeah, you can read the ballot to him, but he has to make all the decisions. I'm like, okay, that's good. And I thought, wow, what if we developed an. This hasn't developed yet. So if any of your listeners have this idea or have a way to make this happen, wouldn't it be great if you had an AR app that could scan the ballot, read the ballot to the person, possibly put up a video of whatever the platform is of the candidates that you're being asked to vote on and become an informed voter? And I got to thinking, what fundamental right, what is the most fundamental life skill to have then your right to exercise your voice in democracy?
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Right?
[00:26:22] Speaker A: And here's a way that technology could help students. Neurodiverse students have that ability to still be a participant in their, you know, their citizenry. And so I look at the power of these tools and I'm like, the possibilities are endless. We just need to start developing it.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And just, I mean, I have to just even step back for a minute here because this is, this is amazing stuff. I mean, and this is, this is the reason why, I mean, technology has always been about access and opportunities. Access to technology is the first part.
And then the opportunities that it can take you down for a variety of learners, for neurodiverse students.
And I think that's where the real innovation happens. And I think it's. We go back to talking about how lucky we are. And I think that's also a part of that is like, we know, we know in our roles that not every kid has those opportunities. There are, there are Joshes out there that, you know, don't have an amazing father like you who is, who is researching this stuff. And so, and I think that's where I hope work that you're doing now can, can help support a generation of students as we go forward. Because I think all this stuff, they're not just games, they're not just gadgets. They're. They can be life changing experiences for all of our students. And this is the. This is the good of technology. There's a lot of bad with it. We know. We know, and we acknowledge that, but there's. There's so much good. And everything you said is just what you want to hear and talk about in. In. In technology.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: I'll tell you, if I could add one. One more portion where I'm getting my. My study involved, because it's a phenomenological. It's a qualitative dissertation.
I'm using a platform called Florio, and if your listeners haven't familiar with that, it's F L O R E O.
It is a. It was built. It's a platform that was built by a gentleman who had a son with autism. And he got to thinking one day, if my son ever got pulled over by a police officer in a car, would he know how to respond from. From a social aspect and.
And be able to respond appropriately to that scenario? And so he started building this platform that had. Basically, they're all social scenarios. That's what Florio is. Everything from, you know, what do you do when you get pulled over by a police officer, to navigating a grocery store, to crossing the street.
And I've used the one that's across the street where it's. And, you know, you. And I take that for granted. A lot of people take that for granted.
But people with intellectual disabilities may not have the capabilities or the skills developed just yet. And so this crossing the street, for example, you'll see the cars going in front of you, and all of a sudden they'll come to a stop, and you look up at the stoplight, and the stoplight says stop. And then all of a sudden, the sign across the street says walk. And you start walking, and boom, you get dinged. Why do you think they got dinged?
Because what should you do when you cross the street? You should always look both ways. Right. And so that program is actually watching and sensing for that and assessing the student while they're doing that activity and giving feedback to the student so that they. Next time they'll know better not to look both. You know, to look both ways before they cross the street. And that's one of the things I really like about this is you get to practice real life and build confidence before you go out into the world and actually have to do real life. You get to practice it a little bit. And that's what these programs offer students to be able to do.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's. And that's amazing. And you hit the nail on the head. I mean, confidence, right? I mean, it's like things we take for granted. I mean, things that I was taught. But you know, some, some having neurodiverse learners, a different variety of learners, we all learn different, differently. And so I think having, having that kind of life skill approach to give, give those, those, those folks, the confidence is, is, it's a game changer really. I mean, really is. And, and this kind of work and this kind of technology, you know, the hope is that it only gets better and broadens out with, with research, like what you're doing and, and with, with within other companies.
You know, and I want to also go back to that idea of like, you know, having the headset on. And I remember when I was wearing the Apple Vision Pro and I saw some of their immersive experiences for the first time, trust me, I, I, I got a little nauseous.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Just like, like, because I'm not, I'm not one for heights. Like, I don't like, I don't like.
[00:31:02] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, I know what you did then.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Yeah, right. I don't like heights. I don't like, like bridges. Like, I'm not a fan. Flying is fine because it's just, it's. I still, I'm always amazed by the, the art of flying.
But yeah, no, it was, it's. And so that's a good point too because it's like even thinking that, like, yeah, every kid in a headset is, is a game changer. But yeah, some kids, that's not a good place for them at all, you know, for any of us, really.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: All right, so I want to shift gears a little bit. So, Phil, you are also a podcast host. I mean, it's like this is, this is. I've had several podcast hosts on already so far, and it's really cool. So your show is zero Breach Zone. It's focused on cyber security specifically and best practices for K12 schools and school leaders.
Share a little bit about, you know, the podcast and then also maybe if you could just a little tidbit in the kind of the state of cybersecurity in K12 schools.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: Sure.
Well, you know, the podcast, I have a co host and literally we started doing the podcast before I even met him in real life because a mutual friend of ours kind of got us together and said, hey, would you be interested in doing a podcast in K12 cybersecurity that would focus on that? And he knew my background and he knew my co host Andy's background. And thought we might be a good mix. And it turns out it's really been great. And we've since met each other. And the Zero Breach Zone is the name of our podcast and that is kind of the focus. I mean, we want to make schools a zero breach zone. That's like, that's perfection, right? And so we're always trying to get there. We may, we probably never will truly get there, but we'll do whatever we can to get as close as we can to that idea. And we're always talking about the fact that it's not if it's when a school gets hacked or gets attacked, hopefully not completely hacked, but actually attacked because those are attacks are coming all the time.
The hackers out there understand that we have a treasure trove of data of information about our students that they could, if they could capture that data, they could hold it for years, decades literally, and then all of a sudden release it slowly to the point where they, you know, are, if they have the right information, they could go out and you know, steal identities basically through that, get Social Security cards, get credit cards off of our little kindergarten students who, you know, you know, don't even have a credit score yet. But you know, by the time they do get a credit score, it could be already ruined, you know, thanks to the hackers out there. And so it's our job, you know, to do the best we can. It costs so much to have the tools out there to protect schools. Schools need to have probably, I don't know. And some of the times in my opinion, I feel like schools need, need more access to protective tools than our corporations do. I mean, you know, corporate espionage and corporate hacking and that sort of thing is bad too, right? Intellectual properties and that sort of thing. But our intellectual property is our students lives, right? Our students data, our students information.
And so we need to do just a good job of protecting that.
The, we have a tool that we've used in the school districts, in our school district and in Andy, my co host school district called Cyber Nut. And it's a cyber security awareness tool that's out there that is designed for K12 schools. And so they are, the founder of Cyber Nut is the one that got us together and said, hey, would you be interested in doing a podcast about the, and making people aware of the threats that are out there, but also the, the tools and some of the things that are out there that can help districts become a zero breach zone down the road.
And so Cybernet is actually a, like I said, cyber security Awareness training software and it's designed for schools, it's gamified.
So our staff all is not only getting trained on what to look for in phishing attacks and all the different ways hackers can try to manipulate us to giving up data.
And the tool actually allows them to be able to click on a little squirrel. It's an extension that's in their email and they click on those little squirrel. And to this day I'm still getting forwarded emails from teachers saying, I think this might be a phishing attack or a phishing email, I'm not sure, and all this. And I'm like, well, then you should be pressing the squirrel. Because number one, if it is a true phishing attack, you will have done your part to protect the district.
Number two, if it's one of our campaigns trying to teach you or to make you aware of cybersecurity, then you will have earned acorns because that's the gamified part of cyber.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:36:23] Speaker A: Yeah. And so now I've got staff and they're. There's actually a leaderboard involved for each of our schools and for our district as a whole. And the teachers love. So it's, it changes the game because some of the other programs that are out there, it's more punitive. It's like, oh, you know what, you clicked on a link you shouldn't have. Now you get to watch 20 videos on how not to click on a link.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: This way it's more positive. It's more of a way that, hey, you do something right, you're going to get rewarded and you're. Hopefully you'll learn in the process.
[00:36:55] Speaker B: So. Yeah, no, and I, I love that. And, and I think you bring up some really good points there. You know, as being an IT director myself, I think one of the things I've noticed in the last five years, even I'd say five to 10 years, is that cyber attacks have gone away from like the big banks or the big, the big targets and like the, like Walmarts and Target and all these places because they have, like you said, the money and the resources to, to funnel into a whole cyber team that can support and put these proactive measures in place.
Whereas, you know, school districts across the country, a rural school district, rural school district or an urban school district, or even, you know, independent schools who have lots of money but don't know how to really resource it and allocate it towards a cybersecurity.
That's a real challenge. And I think. And that's where you're seeing a lot of these cyber attacks happen.
You know, we see them almost daily at the school I work at. And, you know, it's just something we have to do to put preventative measures in place. But I think I want to kind of segue then to this, this program. You talked about, Cybernet, which is really fantastic in the sense that it. It definitely doesn't create those punitive measures or slaps on the wrists when you do something wrong. It's like, hey, you know, here's. Here's a easy way, you know, for you to check something. And then, you know, I love the kind of the community building aspect that's subversive within something like that, where, yeah, you probably have a lot of people talking about it. And, And I think that's a great way for people to learn subject where, you know, you give a. You give a presentation on cyber security to a group of faculty or teachers, and you. You. You lost them as soon as you. As soon as you put the first slide up. But if you create something like this, where it actually puts them in the. In the scenarios and goes through different. Different things, I mean, that's. That's important, you know, because it's also. These are. These are skills that can be applied to outside of school because we all get the random text messages or the calls or, you know, we just got through tax season and that. So that's a big, you know, scam sometimes. So, you know, that's. I think this is. This is all great. And. Yeah, so if you haven't anybody listening out there, make sure. Zero Breach Zone.
I thought, initially, I thought it was an action movie. When I first saw the title, I was like, zero Breach Zone. I'm like, I'm gonna see this at imax. But no, this. No. Zero Breach Zone. I think that's a great. A great podcast. And I think it's. It's a. It's a show for everyone, really, because it's like the cyber security affects us whether we're working a school or if we wake up in the morning. Cybersecurity is something we all need to really kind of own in our own spaces. So.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: Well, I expect your listeners to be watching it sometimes so they can see you as one of our guests on the podcast.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: Let's do it. Let's do it. I'll jump right over. I'll jump right over into the box next to me. And just like that. All right, Phil, we have a final question that we. We ask all of our guests on the pod, what strategies do you use to step away from the digital world?
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Oh, just put the thing down. Right, right. We're only that easy to step away. Yeah, I mean, it's just.
Oh, that's kind of a tough question.
I don't know that I was expecting that one.
I should have been expecting it. Right. But no, yeah, what strategy? I mean, it's, you know, it's realizing what's important in life and people are. What are, what are important.
Yes, the technology can help you connect people, but sometimes, sometimes the technology can get in the way and actually if there's a conversation that can be had face to face, similar to what we're doing right now, although this is a virtual face to face, but if it can be done face to face versus trying to interpret the cap all caps in a text or you know, something like that where, you know, all of a sudden, you know, oh, well, like my dad, he's, he was always famous for putting, putting most of his texts in caps because he left the caps lock on. You know, it wasn't because he was mad at me, he wasn't mad at me. Just that's, that was it. But somebody could look at that and say, I'm, you know, I'm going to interpret that. Hey, this, this person really feels strongly about that. Well, you know, it's, it's realizing that the more you can have real, real people and real time and real conversations matter and we still need to do that, we still need to incorporate that and I think now more so than ever.
I mean, obviously there's some value in some AI chatbots and be able to have, you know, if you're a person who's all alone and maybe is in a nursing home and need somebody to talk to, a chatbot might actually help them on that. So that's, that's a positive of it. But they would tell you they would much rather have their grandkids coming in face to face, sitting on their lap or sitting around running around them versus having to do it digitally. And so the more we can make a conscious effort of, of choosing the right mode or right vehicle for that relationship.
You know, sometimes the right mode is the technology, but I would say at least 50, 50, it's, it goes either way, you know.
[00:42:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, I love that, I love that. And just the simple novel idea of, of conversation.
No matter where that conversation is, I think it's important to, to have that and, and to, to keep, you know, stories and, and history alive through those, through those methods. So great, great time today, Phil. I appreciate you being on the pod and I look forward to coming on your pod to zero breach zone someday soon.
So thank you for being here and thank you for all who are listening.
[00:42:47] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
