Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Digital Kindness Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Marcinik and I'm so glad you're here.
Today we welcome Jane Singleton to the pod. Jane, welcome.
[00:00:23] Speaker A: Thanks Andrew. Happy to be here.
[00:00:27] Speaker B: Jane is an educational leader and executive Coach with over 13 years of experience designing and leading learning support programs in independent schools. As the founder of Launchpad for Life llc, she specializes in helping individuals, teams and organizations navigate the complexities of neurodiversity with clarity and purpose.
Jane's work focuses on building effective systems, enhancing adaptive communication and using meaningful data to drive inclusion, collaboration and long term success.
Jane, it's very exciting to have you on the POD today. We connected through, I think a mutual contact. Kim Zajak, who was also on the POD a few weeks ago. And it's so good to have you here because I know you and Kim have a lot of intersectionality in your work and I'm excited to hear what you have to bring to the table today and just hear about your work because I think it's so important in education today. We have lots of technology, we have technology rich classrooms all over the place and we have such a diverse array of learners in those classrooms. So that's kind of where I want to start today. But so you know, I wrote the book Teaching Digital Kindness. It's almost its two year anniversary, which is wild. And one of the things I focus on, and I really spent a lot of my career talking about is, you know, this idea of digital technology. If, if it, if it can't support and work for everyone, it's almost pointless.
And so as educators, educational leaders, we need to make sure that we're making sure the technology that we put forth is inclusive and adaptable right out of the box. So with that, how can schools create digital environments that are truly inclusive for neurodiverse students, especially when it comes to communication tools, learning platforms and classroom tech?
[00:02:13] Speaker A: That's a great question, Andrew. And I always say it's really important to go back to the basics. I think as the adults and the leaders of the classroom, it's important to keep in mind what it's like to be new. Like remember what it's like to be a new employee and you're overloaded with information, right? That is what students are faced with every single year when they enter a new classroom. Right. And depending what level, right. Elementary have one, but then middle school you have five, maybe you have eight in high school. So they have to navigate multiple classrooms as they get older and it's all new and I especially think developmentally, as kids get older, we have to start thinking about that and where's our alignment with digital kindness? And by kindness, I kind of mean the technology you're using.
Approachable. Is it overwhelming? Is the first question you should ask. I think we have to get away from making everything look pretty.
Organizing adults organize things in like a billion different folders. But I think we need to step back and think, how would a child organize this? Because they're the ones using your classroom page.
So classroom pages, for sure. How do you set those up?
And how many choices are available there? Because we don't want a mountain of choices. When I think about a pillar, or rather a barrier for neurodiverse learners, it can be like figuring out somebody else's organizational system and getting stuck and making a choice. Right. I have all these choices in front of me, and now I'm gonna spend aimless amounts of time deciding where it is. And emotionally, if I find that frustrating, I'm actually just going to give up and not look for the resource at all.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, no, and that's, that's a really good point. I love how you really.
It's so relatable, that idea of being new somewhere and, you know, next summer when we welcome in a whole array of new teachers to a new school.
This is a lot of the work I do where I'm acclimating teachers to new systems, new technologies, and I've gotten feedback before where it's like, I don't need all these glorious choices over here. I just need to know where to do. I need a path that's going to get me from point A to point B. And I love how you set that up. And it's one of those things that's completely relatable to everybody because we've all been new somewhere, somewhere in our careers, in our lives. And I think that's important because I think you're right. We think about a learning management system, for example, and what, what goes into the design of that? And can you talk about that maybe a little bit? Because a lot of schools embrace using learning management systems or tools for that. And what can teachers be mindful of? Or what are some, you know, quick tips to think about? Designing learning experiences, designing learning ecosystems for all students.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: The first question I think we should all be asking is, how many clicks does it take to get there?
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:05:10] Speaker A: So learning management systems we want, we can build as. Right. Educational leadership. I helped to design some systems too, and I think kind of like I'm going to make an analogy here with recycling, right. When we try to get people to recycle, way back when, you would have to like drive to a recycling center and people didn't want to make that extra effort to do that. And so when we made it more accessible and less effort, more people would recycle. And I think that's true. I want to talk about, right. You have the classroom and we talk about students and it needs to be easy for them, but it also needs to be easy for teachers as a community. Right. We educational leadership. They want reports on behavioral data. They want reports on kind of academic barriers that might pop up or difficulties with kids. But if we don't use those LMS systems in a way that's simple and is the same across the board, then you're going to get a lot of teachers who are also going to be like, I just don't have time for that. And when teachers hold more information, I think it holds schools back from changing protocols and changing programs in a way that they need. But it also hurts students in the sense that I think without that shared data, kids can fall through the cracks.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Right? Right. And I think that's again, as we approach new school years, I think we need to be very cognizant of everything you said there. I mean, that's so important with the less clicks to get to where we need to go. And I think it's as simple as that to start. I mean, there's an array of other accessibility pieces that we need to be mindful of. And that really brings me up to a topic that I know you're very familiar with is a universal design for learning. It's a foundation in something I've always tried to get across when I'm approaching or bringing in new technology, whether that's. I brought in several learning management systems to schools and one thing I'm always very cognizant of is how we design those spaces. And it's so key. But also as we're using applications and different tools and thinking about all the different places a student needs to click on or go to in any given day can be just paramount to their individual day. Can you share examples of how UDL principles can be leveraged to be better support neuro neurodiverse students in tech integrated classrooms, especially in maybe a hybrid or asynchronous setting?
[00:07:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I'm going to combine that with a question you asked earlier in just saying, as we integrate technology, is it compatible with the main learning management system we're using?
So if we're using canvas, for example, I think a lot of people are using canvas, backsides, vertec cross. But my point is, if we're using canvas, and then we should really be prioritizing technology that's integrative with that. Otherwise, you're making the kids go to multiple different locations, and the teachers have to go to multiple different locations to check. Right. To check that they've done the work. And that creates its own problem and time lag. I think, too, we have to really think about sensory issues. I know two of the things that I really like that are in the 3.0 UDL guidelines are sustaining effort and persistence. And I think we really don't take into account that frustration tolerance looks a little bit different for people who are neurodivergent. That kind of stick with it. Ness, if it's not easy, can be harder to push through. And so the design matters. And then also emotional capacity is in there. And I think that's where we don't pay enough attention to sensory details. I think a lot of people who are not familiar with neurodivergent individuals and learning disabilities as a whole think, yay, colors, light interaction. They think of motivation in this, like, big, broad stroke of, like, kids love to interact. It looks like a video game. It's great. But that can be sexy. Sensory overload for somebody that has a sensory disorder or autism, and it's too much for them visually, or it's too much auditorily. And so I think we really have to take that into account when we're designing. And that's where I think UDL talks about, like, multiple modes of delivery. So I think that's where we can either maybe have choices. So choices for practice, leveraging tech and say, and be honest about, hey, this one has a lot going on. So if you get visually distracted or that's overwhelming to you, I wouldn't make this choice. And we should be talking about the technology in that way because we're normalizing that. That it. That people get overwhelmed visually or get overwhelmed with too much sound. And we're guiding them to a choice.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Right, Right.
And I think that's all. I think everything you said there is extremely important. And I want to just kind of transition a little bit to. You do a lot of work with schools. You. Your coaching is in your title. Can you talk a little bit about how you approach these topics around udl, around designing these spaces to be inclusive for neurodiverse students, when you're working with a group of teachers and how you really get them to all kind of work in this capacity.
[00:10:18] Speaker A: So my favorite framework to work with, I'm an ICF executive certified coach and I really love coming from kind of what I call the Venn diagram of these three pillars, which is ego, results and relationship. We can plug in ego for autonomy, which I think all teachers can relate to, like their love of making autonomous decisions in the classroom. I think a lot of people go into the industry because of that. But what we have to do is find a balance between those three things. Because if we're thinking, oh I love this idea, it's creative, it's this, this, this organizational system, it works for me, that's ego. If we're not considering how does it work for getting the results I need and how does it work for relationships. And so that's really the lens I really like to take people down because they have to have their own awareness around their limited beliefs and some self reflection on am I doing this because it's easier for me and this is how I think or have I considered doing some perspective taking from different styles of learners. And I think this is also true on teams. When we're making decisions of like how do we collect data, what technology are we going to use in the sixth grade as a team so we're not overwhelming our students then coming to those decisions requires you to look through each of those lenses to find a choice where you're going to get buy in. You do not get consistency without buy in. So I think that's a facilitative conversation and that's a lot of like the work that I do.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: That's great. And I think you're right because I think a lot of times schools make the technology choices first and then 100%.
As someone who is involved in making a lot of the technology choices at school, I feel like the technology choices are made and then we design everything backwards. And I just think with the students in the classroom, it's kind of setting them back a little bit. And I just want to talk a little bit, I want to push a little bit more in that area on someone who is a technology leader in school or someone who is instructional leader. You know what, what should they be thinking about when making technology choices and who are the conversations, the data they should be looking at? Because again, I love that part about your. When I was giving your intro around this, this data to inform inclusion and I think that's what we need to kind of focus on. A lot of times schools are just getting technology, they're throwing Chromebooks in there. And a lot of this was bad habits from the pandemic. Right. I mean we, we got kids on devices just to make school work. And then a lot of those bad habits have sustained unfortunately. And so I, I'm, I'm in a place at a school where I think we need to be making the choices around what works for every student first and looking at the data as opposed to just bringing technology in and then trying to design backwards towards a student. So you talk a little bit about kind of what those, those folks and those kind of leadership positions should be thinking about.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I think to make this a big community based decision. Right. There's a lot of moving pieces there. I think because of where we are post pandemic is that you should really make a list of all the things the school's paying for, number one. And then I think I would start small with the data collection. Like hey, simple survey. If you use this, if you use this rated on a scale of 1 to 5, like for frequency but also quality.
So just looking at frequency and quality, then you're going to see the most used technology as well as the voice of like quality wise. What do my teachers feel about this? Because the higher the quality, they probably integrate it the most or really depend on it for data. And then you have a short survey, don't get into a long survey. That's annoying. From there you might just add a question in there saying is there a technology that you would feel comfortable presenting about how you use it?
Because I, I think we really overstep or miss. It's a missed opportunity in my opinion to not have a teacher be the lead in professional development on integration. If they use it really regularly and they're super passionate about what it has done for them as a teacher, but what it has also done for students as learners. So I think that's like my, those are maybe my first three steps that I would start with.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:35] Speaker A: And I think the other thing I've been thinking a lot about is if you're in a leadership position related to academic technology, if you're, or an administrator who's having to make these decisions, I think you need to think about a quarterly rollout.
Like what is the most essential technology that we have to use in the first quarter. There's so many moving pieces at the beginning of the year. Right. I'm going to go back to emotional capacity. The emotional capacity piece. There's a lot of new information. There's a whole classroom full of new students, new parents, Setting this up, new curriculum, potentially. So what would be the most essential piece of technology to review and give implementation time for? I think what I've seen, although well intended, is like, hey, I'm just going to explain this technology and then they move on to whoever's presenting next and there's no implementation time. If you truly value and see this as essential technology, it should be short, sweet, to the point, I like a 10 to 2, 10 minutes, 2 minutes of processing where they're actually applying it in departments or grade level teams and let them build in that moment. Because when you go through things so quickly, it implies that like there's a choice. Like how important is it if you're not even going to give me time to actually apply what you're talking to me about?
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah, no, you're. That's spot on. I mean the, the September is just an awful month in schools. I mean if, if you've ever worked in a school in September or even like August, it's just, it's this sprint and, and, and I, I love that idea of like a quarterly buildup because it's, you know, supporting teachers and that's kind of what I do now. But I've also been in the classroom and I have that lens of just this like this wave coming. You can see it like mid August. All teachers can see it mid August. This wave is just forming and, and it's, it's coming for us and it's just, and if the expectations are so high and we have to like, you know, it would be great if we could take September and like build it out into like maybe November. But you know, it's tough with the time of timing of school and everything like that. But I love this idea of like a quarterly build out. Focus on, on a chunk of chunk it out throughout the year and then don't feel like you need to have, you need to do everything right away because I mean, you know, emotional capacity of educators in August is, is high. You've got the recharge, but we don't want to drain those batteries in like, you know, by the second week of September.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: The other thing I would mention too, especially in like an academic tech leadership position is I really like it when I've seen it done.
Differentiation for adults. Because you have to remember there's a huge, I mean generationally. Right. Technology.
We grew up in different levels of.
If you do a pd, nobody likes to feel shamed. Like if you've lost me, right, I've checked out anyway and if I'm Bored out of my mind. Because yes, I do know how to copy and paste. Like then I'm also checking out. So I think if you have the staff resources and again, this is where I kind of lean into. Like, do you have team leads? Do you have people that are just passionate about a particular type of technology or program? Then you can differentiate and say people self select.
I'm, you know, I'm Khan Academy 1.0. I'm Khan Academy 2.0 or Canvas 1.0, 2.0.
And then they can self select. And that allows your new teachers who might be really advanced in a technology to go where they need to go.
Again, I worry we do a lot of broad strokes.
I think that's something I could go on and on about new teacher orientation because I mean, I've always felt that when I switched schools, it's like you feel like you have to prove yourself as if you have no experience. Experience. And it's, it makes starting a job like not fun. So how can we facilitate that onboarding process where.
Why couldn't a new teacher at a school, why couldn't they be a leader?
[00:18:42] Speaker B: Right?
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Yeah, if they wanted to, maybe they want to bring their expertise. Maybe that was part of their hope and growth experience when they joined.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's, it is, it's such a novel thought, but we don't do it. And it's, I always find, I found it interesting, Jane, is that we, you know, we make, we, we focus so much of our time and attention as educators and leaders to make these decisions and try and put the best package in place for our students. But yet as adult learners, we don't do that within our own, our own spheres of learning. And, and that's, I think that's a problem in a school a lot. I mean, I think, I think you think about like pd. I mean, I know there's some schools that practice, they do this, they do like two days of professional development at the end of the school year. And I'm like, what are you trying to do here? Like what, like what are you, what's the goal of this? Like, everyone can see the beach and hear the waves. What are you trying to do? You're trying to bring some high level AI conversation into the, in the someone's, you know, happy place of their, you know, we're almost done.
And that's where it's like, I think professional development. I felt this for a long time and it kind of goes to what you said. It should be something that's self selecting. And it should be something that's, you know, more of a progression than just a we gotta do it this day or we gotta do it this day. And I feel like that's where we miss a lot of the mark with our teachers in the times of the year. Because as you know and as I know, being a teacher in and of itself is a lot to process and to account for. And then to take that a step further, bringing the technology and working with a variety of learning in our classrooms on any given day. You know, I think it's, it's. We need to re restructure this whole model of how we deliver and incorporate professional development in our schools.
Because I think, I think teachers want that, they want to lean into this stuff, they want to know more about what you're doing, about what the technology is. But they just, they don't want it to be a compliance checkbox. They want it to be beneficial to them. And I love that idea of yeah, you're a new teacher at a new school, get up there and show us what you know like, because it's, you're coming from a whole new place. Right, right.
I want to kind of shift gears a little bit.
So you know a lot of what my book is and you've talked about this a little bit as well. This whole idea of teaching digital kindness means slowing down listening, listening differently, reflecting a lot. It's one of the reasons why I wrote the book because I looked at the way technology was moving both in like the social aspect in my own life and then how it was being presented in schools post pandemic and I just felt we were at a place where we needed to just stop everything and just really like listen to each other, calm down. So you know, how can educators and school leaders model and teach like this idea of digital listening that honors neurodiverse ways of processing and expressing ideas. You know, especially in this. We haven't even, it's. I don't know how many minutes we're in and we just talked about AI, but in a fast moving online discussions and AI supported environments.
[00:21:56] Speaker A: I think so I am also, I've also played a lot of roles in my career and I'm also a reading specialist and trained and I think a lot about when we take information in what we need to process that and how much time is healthy and going back to just cognitive like neuroscience. What we each need is different because think. I think as teachers we should be guiders of self awareness for kids. So do we ask reflective questions around digital listening? I know that in my, with my private clients, I've been really impressed. There's a high schooler that I think high schoolers definitely can reflect on emotionally. How does it make you feel when you get tied up into this social media? Right? You're feeding comparison. Like feeding comparison is probably like the worst thing you can feed if you want to feel good about yourself.
And so how do you feel after you spend so much time? And so how could we create, how could we say, hey, do this timed exercise and maybe have a reflection that could be a writing activity, if I'm being honest, because kids just need to write more for fun. In my opinion that's not overly guided. But how could we, how could like homework and writing exercises that are more daily be like, like one day off? Or like what's the difference between being on it for 20 minutes and how do you feel after being on it for an hour? Because we know they're probably. I don't know if I know a kid that's not spending an hour with technology.
So I think how can we ask those reflective questions? How could we make it a data collection assignment? I think there's so many different ways to go about it. And for AI in particular, I know that I'm really, I think we do not teach the skill of question development enough. I think if you want to be a great self learner, which I think as we become adults, even in higher education, you're really teaching yourself a lot through taking in information. You have to be able to self question, self question while you read, ask good questions in class, ask your co workers good questions. When we're doing a project so that you can get the information that you need. And what I like about AI is like you could use AI and the answers, you could compare the answers and be like, which answer is better? And that is really the judge of the question. AI is a very black and white judge of a mediocre question to a very detailed question. And so that I think we should be leveraging way more than we are because question development is actually much harder. And we don't always intentionally work on that, I think in the ways that we could.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: Yeah, no, two things there. And I agree the most recent thing you said there is the, this idea of inquiry and not just so much seeking out the right answer all the time, but what are the right questions we should be asking? And when you think about AI and where it is now, I mean that's where it is. We need to be, you know, you're not going to get the response you want unless you pose a really detailed specific question to that tool. And I think that's important because it's something where I think a lot of people are getting intimidated by it or schools are just kind of burying their heads in the sand around it. Not saying they have to go all in on AI, but we should at least be thinking about where are the areas where we can connect and make where the intersectionality between an English or history class and AI. And I think there's a lot of ways in which we can really do some really cool stuff.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: There's.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Also the idea, I love the idea of writing prompts being about and kind of subversively collecting data around, you know, because I just feel like students, they know that they're in these ecosystems of these phones and these social media, they know it doesn't make them feel good. I mean it's, it's out there. And I think that's a great way of really understanding our students holistically and understanding what it's like when they're on technology.
That's one of those things I'm curious about. Like when, when students leave our purview and they're out there beyond us in schools and they have the technology kind of unguided, without the guide rails, like what is that like for them? And I think it's really impacting kids in a variety of ways. And they know they're addicted. They know they need to check it out. They know that's where their friends are. Anybody who's developing these, these tools is not stopping because the users are just, they want the users to stay there.
Yeah. So that's just, I think that's using that as a writing prompt and self reflection.
I just, I really like that a lot.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Or a research project, quite frankly, if I'm being honest. There's a movie. I mean the designers, it's designed to be addictive. So like there's a movie, there's the podcast with a Facebook whistleblower of like internally, she's like, we collected this data and we didn't change it. And of course you could find plenty of written material, but there you go. Multimodal research project, completely relevant to the real world. And like I just think socially, emotionally helping kids again, they have to come to their own conclusions. We all know the top down scenario doesn't work.
Sustain behavioral change.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Right?
Yeah. So you know teachers out there, you just got a free resource from Jane Singleton the next year to start your. You're already ahead. Like you've Already can check off August. Like, that's just. I may recommend it. That was actually really great. You just, you just rattled that off. James, I think. I think you're going to ISTE this year, correct?
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Yes, I'll be at ISTE in San Antonio. Yeah. June 29th through the 2nd of July.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: Would you mind kind of giving us listeners a preview of like, what you'll be talking about and maybe who you'll be talking with?
[00:27:38] Speaker A: Yeah, so I'm actually going to be in the learning lab section, like the playground piece of it. And I'm going to be using my kind of coaching lens of how to use AI to build your sphere of influence. And it's going to be leveled because it could also be, if you're a teacher, how to use AI to build your sphere of influence. But also, how could you use it with like a younger audience to help them understand perspective taking here when I. Sphere of influence is a very businessy term. I am going to acknowledge that, but I want to simplify that and say it's perspective taking influence in and of itself. If you're going to be a good communicator, you have to be able to do good perspective taking. And I think that's something that we try really hard to teach in schools. And I think. I think not all kids or adults, if I'm being really honest, can process like people's capacity for what I call confrontation is very different. How we process things emotionally is very different. Some people need more time, some people can do it in the moment. And I think AI can be that other person and you can say, hey, this is. This is what I said. Or, um, this is. I'm speaking with a highly anxious parent who is an over. Like an overachiever and is worried about their kid. But this is where their kid is at. How could I reword this email?
[00:28:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Because our influence matters. I think at the end of the day, parents and kids even, and with all the tension that might be there, they do want what's best for the kid. It's just we can't get out of our own egos a little bit.
And I say ego kindly. We all have ones. Whoever's out here listening, thinking, I don't have an ego, that's absolutely impossible. It's simply understanding that people communicate differently and like words mean so much. So that sphere of influence, AI is a beautiful partner in being a thought partner in how you can be more effective in your communication. And that's what I mean by sphere of influence.
[00:29:36] Speaker B: I love that and as you were saying that too, I just thought about, I thought about like all the big meetings I had and where I'm like, you know, around a table of educational leaders or senior leadership group. And AI would have been such a great. I'm like, hey, I'm gonna say this tomorrow. What do you think? I know you don't know the players in the room that well, but here's the context, here's what I'm gonna say. You know, will this land well, or should I just wrap it up? You know, And I think that's important. And I love the, the, the connection to.
And I think that's a great entry point for teachers, counselors, all to be able to use AI as a thought partner. Not that AI is going to give you the end all, be all answer to solve what you're going to share with that parent or what you're doing. I mean, you're the professional.
And I think that's really where we are with AI. AI is not going to do our work for us. It's not going to replace us. It's not doing that.
But what it can be is someone to bounce ideas off and to say, like, hey, you know, here's some context. Here's what I'm working on.
How does this sound? And I think that's where you can kind of lessen the anxiety of that maybe very difficult conversation you have to have with a parent or guardian. And that's, I think, an important way to use AI.
And schools should be thinking about how they can give teachers the tools to be able to do that and to understand that so that they know that, like, hey, you're not just going to get an answer. You're going to maybe pitch an idea and then get some feedback. And I think that's. That's really important. Well, unfortunately, I cannot be at ISTE this year. I'm really bummed because I would definitely want to attend this session. So I'd love to follow up with you on how this goes and just. And hear some of the feedback you get from, from the learning lab. It sounds like a great, really engaging session. And if you're out there listening and going to iste, make sure you hit up the playgr, make sure you hit up the learning lab and go visit Jane and all her awesome ideas and resources. So, Jane, one final question that I ask every guest on this show. What strategies do you use to step away from the digital world?
[00:31:46] Speaker A: Well, for me, I love to be outside in general, but I think I'm most intentional and cognizant about right when I wake up and right when I, like before bed and immediate trying really hard not to go to the phone or computer, whether that's like journaling on pencil and paper, like what's the to do list for today? Or something along those lines, or reading before bed is, I think what we put into our heads right before bed. And what we do first thing in the morning, I think can really set the tone for the day. So I would say that's my most intentional habit related to technology.
[00:32:24] Speaker B: I love it. I love it. And I agree, like, those are, those are important times when you and I, and I think about it myself and a lot of us, we. The first, the last person, the last thing we see before we go to bed is usually a screen. And the first thing we see before we go when we wake up is a screen. And it's like maybe just separate that a little bit and, and you know, kind of get in tune with yourself and your surroundings, so. Well, Jane, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your with them and just amazing resources. I'm sure we could probably have a 90 minute podcast where I'm just talking about all these great things. But make sure you check out Jane at iste.
She's on all the socials, check out her work.
And thanks again for being a guest on the podcast today.
[00:33:09] Speaker A: Awesome. Thanks so much for having me, Andrea. I had a blast.
