Balancing Tech and Humanity in Schools

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:08] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Digital Kindness Podcast. I am your host, Andrew Marcinic, and I'm so glad you're here. We are in the midst of season two of the Digital Kindness Podcast. We got a little delayed, but we are now back. Today we welcome Amelia Iverson Grigori to the podcast. Amelia, welcome. [00:00:28] Speaker A: Thanks for having me, Andrew. I'm happy to be here. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Well, great you're here and excited that you are our first guest of season two, where we're going to dive into a lot of conversations around this whole thing around AI, because I think it's the topic at the heart of a lot of schools. But today we're not going to dig into tools and all those things around AI. We're going to really talk about, I think, kind of that idea of, of these tech cycles and how they, how they perpetuate year to year, decade to decade. And we find ourselves in the midst of something that we're very familiar with, which is, you know, a new thing, a new technology coming about and it's going to transform and revolutionize education. So that's kind of what we're going to focus on today. But before that, I want to make sure our viewers and our listeners know exactly who you are. So Amelia is currently the technology manager at Wallinadill School for the Arts, a role that feels a bit like coming home for her. She spent five years in their tech department before leaving in 2022. So that means you were there during the fun times in Covid. So good for you for surviving that. With over a decade of experience working in independent schools, she has collected the full set of edtech experiences. Help desk Tech integration Director of Academic technologies before boomeranging back to wall Matilda as tech manager for this year. Amelia again. It's great to finally have you on the pod. [00:01:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm looking forward to our conversation [00:01:54] Speaker B: today on our morning comm and listening in their cars or on their morning runs. Want to know exactly why you're here and what we're going to talk about today. So I want to start with kind of something I alluded to in the beginning there around EdTech Cycles. It seems like EdTech Cycles repeats itself almost every. With every transformative technology. We find ourselves with that again in the age of AI. How do we break that pattern? And that pattern being like we have these technologies that come around every so often. I remember it was one to ones for a while it was smart boards for a while it was the Internet, it was ubiquitous networks in schools, it was Google, what have you and we're always calling them transformative. And I really haven't seen anything really transform that dramatically in education. Aside from schools have new things, they have new tools, but what is that really doing with student learning and development as they come through our schools? And, you know, what would it look like to be both responsive and thoughtful with these new technologies and the patterns of these cycles? [00:03:10] Speaker A: Well, I think it's hard because when these new technologies emerge, especially with look back at the Internet and now AI, there's this sense of urgency in schools to do something about it. What are we doing? You know, a lot of the time we focus on initially, we focus on the negative side effect or, you know, with AI, the feeding, it's like all anyone really wants to talk about. But, you know, if you look now like, so spring 2023, it was kind of like the urgency of, we need to do something, we need a policy, we need. And now I feel like there's been this natural lull where, yeah, you know, schools and faculty and technology departments, and we're all still talking about it, but I feel like there is this natural lull or pause that's come, but I feel like we'd, you know, serve so much more if we cognitively took that pause as a school before, you know, that urgency took a hold because you don't. You don't want to be left behind, and you don't want to do a disservice to your students or your faculty. But, you know, it's clear that these technologies come and they're not going away. They're just evolving. So what are you really missing if you throw that pause in the beginning? [00:04:20] Speaker B: Yeah. What do you think that you mentioned this idea of a lull, and I agree. I feel like it's almost kind of like AI is still everywhere. It's still kind of at the forefront of every conference. But when I step inside schools, I am met with and I get a chance to work with. I work with my own school at, you know, Seattle Prep, but I also. I work with a lot of other schools on the side and just kind of seeing what they're doing and looking at what they're doing with AI. And I get the sense that there's a lot of spinning heads and they don't really know what they should be doing with AI. They're looking around the educational ecosystem, and a lot of people are saying, do this, do this, do this. And I think when you really break that down into classroom practice and what's actually going on in the classroom, I Think teachers are really hesitant to jump into this. And so I want you to talk a little bit about that and just kind of what your perspective is on that. And what do you think teachers in schools are feeling right now with this AI? [00:05:23] Speaker A: Well, I think, you know, I think something that we really need to name is the novelty has worn off. You know, we've. We've explained to. We've been able. I mean, most technology departments have been able to explain to faculty that ChatGPT, it's not all encompassing AI, it's a company and they facilitate generative AI and it's this, that, and the other thing, but the novelty of it is kind of worn off. And so with that, I think that teacher fatigue creeps in. It's another revolution. I think that there's still some burnout from COVID in tech departments and with faculty. I think you and I have had plenty of conversations about the pendulum swing with technology. You know, in Covid, we were all asynchronous, and we need to support that and we need to learn that quickly, and we need to make sure people are supported in that. And then the pendulum swung back and we're back to normal learning or whatever normal is now. And some teachers don't want to touch technology, you know, they were forced to use it. And so there's a little bit of that. I think there's that fatigue that's creeping in of like, okay, great, another thing that we have to do and learn. And then I think there's the gap between administrative panic and then the reality of being in a classroom. I think it's great that if you can get support as a tech leader, if you can get support from administration to integrate AI in classrooms or in lessons or in one project a semester or whatever it is. But the reality of the matter is teachers have their lesson plans built, built and blocked for the year. Especially, you know, if you're using an LMS effectively, you literally have your course built out for the entire year. And now you want. And now it's kind of goes back to the, okay, you want me to add another thing? You want me to go in and change something? How are you going to support that? Are you going to give time for that? Time's a hot, huge, huge commodity. Yeah. And then, you know, I think also we're hitting this point where some schools, you know, waiting for someone else to figure out, what's this district going to do? What's this school going to do? And so, you know, in some instances, your schools that you're Communicating. Other schools that you're communicating with mostly maybe haven't done anything yet. And so now you're like, okay, I guess we have to figure it out. Yeah. [00:07:45] Speaker B: And you bring up a real, a lot of really good points there to, to really unpack a few things, you know, And I think the teacher burnout thing, I think the post Covid thing is real. I think it's still there. I mean, we're still talking like, you know, four and a half years out from that. But at the same time, that was such a disruptor in and of itself that it took a lot out of us and it basically employed us using not the best practices and technology that we should be using every day with both students and faculty. Everyone was just using it all the time. We came out of it using, having a lot of bad practices with those with technology and art and how we're in our schools. And I even just look at one to ones and a lot of schools that I talk to, they say we became one to one right after Covid because, you know, we had to, and we had to get the kids a device. But I mean, even, even AI aside, I don't even know if a lot of schools understand why they have a one to one device program in their schools. Like, is it necessary? And it came and never left. It never left. It's just here we have, we have stuff. It's like, we have stuff. It's like everyone's garage. It's like, how did your garage get so messy? I don't know. After Covid, everything just ended up there. And I think that's where we are with EdTech and Technology. Schools have these things, but are they really leveraging them the way they should be? And are administrators making decisions with the human in mind? And I say that in the sense of, in the context of talking about AI. I think we make a lot of decisions based around the technology and the relationship to the technology tool. But we don't make a lot of decisions that are designed to really focus on the human that's using the technology in the classroom every day with kids all learning at different paces in different developmental stages. And so that's a big miss. I think with all schools make, they don't, like you said earlier, they don't pause and have these questions. It's like, hey, we gotta be doing something about AI because everyone's talking about it, so we gotta do something. And I even think, even going further than that, I think schools don't even know what to do with AI even the schools that are using AI, they've built the policies, they, they've shared their policies. They do all this great stuff. They brought in like, I don't know, some random tool like magic school AI or something. And which is a great tool though. It's a great tool. I'm not saying this is, I'm not bashing magic AI, but, or magic school AI, but it's like, like what is that? Like what, what is it actually doing? What, what are we going. Because I say that because the AI technology is moving so fast and the pace of change is so quick, then how could we ever measure success as far as, where are we aiming for students to be? Like, with, with technology and the whole CS and computer science rollouts that happened, you know, 10 years ago and are still present. You know, that was actually, you know, there were students that could go out and they could build apps, they could build and design the next generation of technology tools. Now we have tools that, but you could see that end in, in mind, this, we don't, I don't even know where this is going to go. Like, I don't know what in 10, 15 years when my daughter's in high school, what she going to encounter with AI. Like, I don't know that. [00:11:00] Speaker A: I think that's what, you know, that's such an interesting point. And I, I think what's so interesting is, you know, I've reached the age, the maturity where listening, like when you're, when you're working. I, I live on campus at Walnut Hill, I'm in a boarding school, I live and breathe here. This is where I am. But when you're surrounded by high school students all the time, there's such passion behind, you know, their beliefs at this time in their life. And I had this, my four year old daughter and all I could think was when she is like 16, she's gonna look at me and tell me all of the things that I didn't or did do with AI that was great or terrible. And it's like hindsight's 20 20. But it's so interesting to think like what will the hindsight be from these students? You know, and you know, you, you wrote a great piece that got delivered to our inboxes this morning. But you know, if you want to, do you want to talk about that a little bit? Because that's, yeah, it's kind of the same thing. Like what is, what is going to be the other foot? Or what will be hindsight? [00:12:05] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And that's where I want to really kind of bring the student lens into this whole conversation, which I feel like a lot of times student lens is sometimes left out of the conversation as adults. I agree there's a certain balance between us making the right decisions as professionals in schools, as leaders for our students at this level. But kind of going back to my last, kind of my last hot take, if you will. Like, I don't know where AI, what, what we're. What are we planning? You could say we're planning to, you know, we're preparing students to be the next designers of AI and what that is. Who knows what that is? I don't, I don't know if there's the best minds out there that know what this is. [00:12:50] Speaker A: And that's terrifying. [00:12:51] Speaker B: It is terrifying because the way I see it going, I mean, I, I posted something the other day. This Neo robot is, is available now for purchase and it'll be out soon in 2026. Like, I really want it. I'm not getting it, but I really want it for Christmas. But like, that's okay. There's that. And then what does that look like with kind of super agenic AI intelligence? Like when this thing is available to reason and understand us in a way? Like, is that what we're preparing for? Like, I don't know. So I think AI has a lot of potential in a lot of different spaces. But yeah, kind of going back to my post. Like, I wrote a post today called, you know, do Students Really Want AI? And I wasn't trying to be cute, but a lot of the rhetoric we hear around AI is in that it must be, it's a must for students. It's imperative that we have it in our schools. We expose our kids to this stuff. But we haven't really stopped to include student voice in the AI conversations that we're having in schools. I know some schools have, include students and have students as part of committees and stuff like that. But like, I don't know, do kids really want it? I mean, you work in a, you work in a school day in and day out. What are you hearing from students that you talk to? [00:14:06] Speaker A: I mean, from what I like, a lot of the students that I work with, they, they're artists, they don't want to touch it. They, you know, it's, it is potentially going to ruin their livelihood one day if they want to go on to be artists. Um, so, you know, I, you know, we haven't done a lot of work or since I returned to Wallet Hill, I haven't had the opportunity to Do a lot of work with students in AI. I think that's the interesting piece too is it's kind of like as a, you know, a tech leader. All right, you're looking, you're looking to system rollovers and grades and comments and, you know, those things. So it's kind of like, what, what time do I have to do this? You know, talking to kids in the dining hall and like in the dorms there, there's a lot of, there's a lot of hesitation, like, respectively. So given the fact that there are artists about AI and so it's, you know, it's something that I really want to handle with care as we move forward. Because this isn't, this isn't your regular school. [00:15:05] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:15:06] Speaker A: You know, our students, the, they have academic classes in the morning, they break for lunch, then they go to their arts classes. We have five majors. Dance, music, writing, film, media arts, visual arts, theater. And you know, this affects all of their majors and all of their professions. So, yeah, it's definitely something I want to handle with care. And if they, you know, if there's a lot of hesitation, then I need to respect that and kind of figure out what that looks like. And what I think that's the pressure too is like the, what do they need? If I'm still trying to understand how this works, the benefit of it, like, what do they need? And like, how are we to decide that if we can't see 10 years in the future? I mean, because this is clearly, you know, it's going to affect jobs and industry. So what does that look like? Where, where are our alumni working and how is it affecting those industries already? Like, you know, great data point to look at. So yeah, it's, you know, there's a lot there to unpack. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I, again, a lot of good points there. And I think the student lens is something I was trying to really convey. And I think the post today, when I was writing it, it really kind of harkened back to in 2013 or 2011. I rolled out, I helped roll out a one to one iPad initiative at Burlington High School. And that was fairly new at the time. Not a lot of schools had gone in the direction of one to one. There was one to one. Computing had been a term in the space, but with the combination of high speed networks available in schools and cost effective, along with devices that were mobile and easily managed, it all kind of worked. And even though I think student voice was in that conversation, as far as that planning goes, I had a lot of students that were, their iPads were. Remained in their lockers their whole year. Like we're talking about sophomores, juniors, seniors who had spent all this time in their careers and their educational journeys, like learning a different way. And then this device was put in front of them and they were supposed to learn on it and they were supposed to do school on the device. And that was supposed to transform things. And I think it didn't at all. And I think it really, I think for some kids it might have taken them back or you know, perpetuated this idea of where we're looking at now with just kids being constantly in screens, whether they're in school and, or they're, they're at home and they're in social situations. [00:17:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's, there's so many parents that are using it to regulate their kids. Their kids are crying and they give them their. An iPad. You know, it's. [00:17:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, my kid cried a lot today. I did not give her an iPad. And it's hard to listen to. It's, it's you, you've been through it. It's, it's hard to listen to. And it's like, you know, we give her tv, but like, TV is something that, you know, we're not just letting her sit on YouTube and enjoy something without any, any YouTube is infinite. Okay. [00:18:09] Speaker A: I could, we could have a whole nother episode on parental controls and parent supervision with YouTube. It is something. It is so terrifying to me. [00:18:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:19] Speaker A: That I just, it's terrifying. It really is. But I, it's. I think what, I think one of the best things that we can do to serve ourselves in schools with looking at AI is, you know, we've talked about one to one programs and in hindsight with that, like, what would we have done? What are the why questions? And it's like, you know, look back at that process. What. What have I done? What could I done? And what could have I done? You get it. But, you know, and create the rubric from that because it's not, it's not that different of a scenario. You need to ask the questions. And I think, you know, if you're looking at AI, it's this big thing, it's, you know, sucking the air out of the room in a lot of cases. But if you treat it like any other third party tool, what is the process for evaluating a third party tool? And like, what is, you know, you, you implement a third party tool. All right, what's your timeline for reevaluating it? Like, treat it like any other tool, you know, I think, and you know, digital citizenship curriculum, like, it should fit naturally in there somewhere. But if you don't have that, then like, you're kind of, you're putting square peg groundhole. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, no, I agree. And it's just, I think we need to just. And I don't think anything we're saying here, we're not saying AI should not be part of the conversation in schools. I think, I think it's really kind of naive to think that AI is not going to have an impact on the classroom or on education one way or the other. I think that is something that I believe in and I, I believe about every technology. However, I don't believe that we need to just put all this stuff on teachers and expect them to thrive with AI because, you know, I was in a really, really challenging conversation yesterday with some colleagues around, like, what are, what are we going to do? Like, AI is embedded into everything. Like, and again, I'm talking about. My school is very, they've been very proactive about AI since its. It's just come out. They haven't buried their heads in the sand. They've. They've created policies, they've created, you know, structures for teachers in the classroom to really, really give teachers agency to, to support AI and to use it if they want to, but there's no mandate to use it. But what we're finding in, even in that kind of progressive type of environment, what we're finding is that, you know, just even having students go through the writing process is becoming very challenging. Because, yes, we're not off to. We realize that cheating is, is not something, it's something that happens regardless of technology or not. What's, what the problem is, is like, how are kids going to be building skills? Like, if, if AI is there to do everything, like, how are you going to. It's like, well, that's just going to become part of the new norm. And that's kind of where we left our conversations is this is writing, writing alongside of a prompt generator, an AI tool going to be part of the new norm? Much like, you know, eventually TI84 calculators were part of the norm when like, you know, do kids really need to use math if there's calculators in the, in the universe? I mean, that's a whole other podcast topic. [00:21:35] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I think, and I think you. And about. You and I have had conversation about this too, but it's like there is this forgotten generation that we're seeing in High schools now where they don't even know how to share Google Doc. And you know, we, you know, somewhere along the way, like we had, we had tech classes, we had, you know, and there's still, it still exists, I know, you know, like in public school there's curriculums you have to follow and, but you know, we're not teaching tech skills like we used to. So it's like, how do you expect these students to like really grasp or absorb AI in the way that like, you know, conceptually we'd want to teach them as a tool, as a skill if we're not teaching them how to like use Google Suite or even formatting a document and because it's, you know, it. Unfortunately there was, you know, we got to a point where we're like, oh, these kids grew up with an iPad. They know how to do those things and they don't. [00:22:32] Speaker B: No, they don't, they don't. [00:22:33] Speaker A: And they come to school and we just assume that they know how to do it because they grew up with an iPad. Yes, my 4 year old can like zoom in on a picture and scroll and do the stuff, but you know, she can't do anything. Like, we can't just assume that these kids are beyond where they actually are cognitively. [00:22:51] Speaker B: Could she have, could she host a world renowned podcast like this? I mean, probably not. [00:22:56] Speaker A: She's going to be a CEO one day. [00:22:58] Speaker B: Probably is probably a CEO or she'll be hopefully paying my health care. No, I mean that's, I think that's a really good point because I think, and again, I go back to a lot of conversations I've had with different school leaders and technology and it's like I come back to that idea. I'm like, well, why do you have a one to one, why do you have that? And more often than not it's like, I don't know, you just kind of have it. The other piece is so many, so many students struggle with basic executive functioning [00:23:26] Speaker A: skills and so much more so since [00:23:28] Speaker B: COVID and so much more so than Covid yet, yet we throw them into a learning management system. And you know, last, last season on the podcast I talked with Jane Singleton and we talked about this idea of, and she's very high on the neurodivergence of learning and think about all the touch points in technology a student has throughout the day, whether that's social and, or in school. And there's just so many different spaces they have to click into and we're not, I, I mean, more often than not we're not guiding kids through these, these spaces in a really instructive way. We're just kind of throwing him into an LMS and saying, hey, this is where all your work's gonna reside. Well, maybe show em on day one. But it's like, that's it. Yeah, like, do we, you know, when you're 16, do you go in a car and you know, your parents are like, these are all the controls. I know there's a lot going on in here, so good luck. [00:24:21] Speaker A: And there's some, there's some places that are still struggling to get all the faculty on the same page. And like, imagine being a 16 year old and now every page looks different. [00:24:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:30] Speaker A: That's tough. And you know, I think to go back to like, like, we're not saying don't use AI or stay away from it because especially like in schools and in education historically, that's where those conversations need to happen. Whether it's, you know, something as polarizing as AI or if your school is totally on board and you're embracing it, like, those conversations need to happen and those skills need to happen. It's just a matter of, are you rushing this? Are you doing the right thing? What is your why? What is your why behind the technology? [00:24:59] Speaker B: Yeah, no, you're exactly right. And we're, I think, kind of to tie this conversation up, which is a really good one. It can probably go on for another hour. I think what we're saying here is be more purposeful and mindful and thoughtful in conversation with your colleagues and leaders and your students about what technology you're bringing in and why you're doing it. Because if you don't have those, like, what problem are we trying to solve? I think that's really something that it comes down to, like, what are we trying to solve by bringing AI into the, into the classroom? And if you can answer that pretty quickly and you know, confidently, then, yeah, good, you're doing well. But if you, if you hesitate, if you're like, well, well, we're bringing AI in because I've, you know, everybody else is doing it. Everybody's doing it. I went to ISTE this past year and I couldn't, you know, escape an AI session. It was, it was all the thing, all the things. And so I think we just, we're imploring school leaders out there. If you're listening, which I hope you are, or you'll subscribe, you know, just be, be more purposeful and mindful about, about this. You know, this is a marathon. This isn't a sprint because we're going to be having a different conversation around AI for the next 10 to 15 years, if not more. [00:26:15] Speaker A: And 10 to 15 months, it's gonna change. [00:26:18] Speaker B: Ten to 15 months, it's gonna change. I mean, I was talking with somebody when I. I wrote a post last week, and I've been really just both, like, wowed and kind of taken aback by Sora, too, which has just come out. [00:26:35] Speaker A: That was a weird video. That was with the golf. [00:26:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I golfed with President Kennedy, which I never thought I'd be able to do. And AI brought that to life in a very weird way. [00:26:46] Speaker A: And like a very enhanced version of the Sims. [00:26:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just like I watched Casey Neistat talk about that. And, you know, he's someone like him who's always been at the forefront of new technologies and, and supporting them and loving them, and even him, he. He's. He's taken aback by it. He's just like, I don't know what this really. I don't know what this solves, and I don't know where this goes, but it's going to be really interesting and maybe pretty dark. And so I think that's. Those are the conversations that are. You know, we now have disruptors that are evolving at a pace that, you know, it's not like when the iPhone disrupted the music industry or stuff like that. It was a very, you know, it was a big thing at the time, but it was a small thing. And. And the iPhone disrupted the phone industry. And for what it's worth. But now AI is not just disrupted. It's disrupting not just one thing. It's disrupting so many different aspects. And so that's going to be the conversation that's going to be continuing on. And if you're out there listening, continue to pace the change and don't feel like you are. You are leaving your students behind by, by just taking time to have thoughtful conversation around AI and, and what it can do for your school. [00:28:09] Speaker A: And I think, too, it's worth noting that, you know, your administrative staff offices are going to move at a different pace than your students. You know, I think business offices, communications, comms, they're even admissions like they are embracing it in a much different way at a much different pace, which is fine. You know, I think, you know, I think we have a duty to protect our students a little bit and really, you know, slow down. So I have a question for you. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Oh, and this has never happened. I don't Know if this has happened on the pod yet, but I'll take it. Let's go. [00:28:45] Speaker A: All right, so digital kindness, primary focus on students. I think, you know, with AI and its polarization, it can, sometimes it brings out the worst in people and the best in people, I think. And I think something that is lacking for the most part with like major professional development conferences, sessions, zooms, books, what have you, is this idea of like holistic PD for tech leaders. Um, and so I wonder if you can talk about, like, what does digital kindness look like for adults in education communities? Like, we need that, like, almost like digital etiquette support and PD for teachers, but no one really wants to talk about it. Like, how is that, how do we tackle that? [00:29:37] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting, I, and I never really thought about it in that context because my whole focus was on, you know, this idea of the students. But I think for teachers, for tech leaders, I think more often than not a lot of tech leaders have not spent a lot of time in schools. And I think that's, I'm speaking very general there. I'm not, you know, I don't have data to back that up, but it's normally what I find is that most folks who are in a technology space have not taught in a classroom. Now some have, a good majority of us have and work their way up. I, I spent years as an English teacher using technology, putting in tickets, not understanding why the LMS wasn't working today, and having to find somebody who knew what they were talking about to figure it out. So I know that I remember one of my first times in the classroom, I was doing a PowerPoint and I was still a pre service teacher and the projector didn't work and I did not know how to pivot to a place where I was going to deliver that lesson without being able to use the boards. I knew and could feel the stress of that from an early, early, early on in my career. And I think that's why I've been so successful as a tech director is because I have that empathy lens of. Man, it really stinks when you can't, you can't get things to work and you, you have all these great hopes of doing things right. And I think that's what we need to. You know, it kind of goes in two places. It's. One is like, when we're bringing in technology, obviously there's opportunities for it to not work. And some would argue that, hey, my pen and pencil, my paper and pencil, you know, always work. So why are we why are we not going in that direction? Or why are we. Why are we bringing all this technology in? And I think there's a balance between trying to find technology that works for you and then, you know, supporting that throughout and not saying you have to have all these things. But I think more often than not, you have technology departments that are understaffed, and they, they are just doing all the things. They are doing the data, they are doing the network, they are doing the help desk, they are doing the repairs, they are doing the. The support in the classrooms, the av. If you want to get into independent schools, they're doing that. [00:32:03] Speaker A: Well, have you ever. Well, have you ever walked into a school? Because you've, you've been into a bunch of different schools. Have you ever walked into a school? And they're like, this is our tech director, Sue. She hasn't taken a day off in 40 years. And you're like, that's not good. It's because she doesn't trust anybody else. If the server goes down. [00:32:20] Speaker B: I meet with them all the time where they have these. You have these people that hold so much, and they don't either delegate out or they don't, you know, they don't trust the folks that they're working with. But I think there needs to be more kind of inclusion around tech directors, tech leaders in the academic space. I think they need to be a part of professional development. They need to be leading professional development. You got to make sure they're going out to professional development. Everyone from the tech director to the technicians that are working in, day in and day out. You know, I've worked with technicians before that. They said, you know, I can do everything you need to do on this computer, but I don't know what they're doing with these, these platforms in the classroom. And so, like, that's a part where it's like, okay, well, we need to get you some support for that, because that's what you're doing. You know, it's like, it's not like you go into working cybersecurity and in a, you know, for bank of America, and you're like, obviously don't know what happens after the transactions. Where does the money go? But it's like, you know, and you probably don't need to, but like, there's, there's a certain level of understanding that needs to happen for tech directors and tech leaders in schools, all the way from the tech leader to the technicians, so that everybody's on the same page and they all can kind of understand and have true empathy for teachers, understanding why they're things aren't working right and why they're frustrated. But then also, you know, being able to support the teams in a small ecosystem and really being, you know, understanding of that, yes, we support technology, but we are not making all the technology decisions. Because in every school I worked at, I don't want to make a decision about an lms. I don't want to make a decision about, you know, switching from Google Apps to Microsoft 365. That's not my decision. My decision is to kind of pull the levers to make things work and provide the ecosystem and infrastructure to make everything harmonious. And I love to have the conversation where I can get feedback from teachers and understand what they want out of the school that they are a part of. [00:34:31] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think that's such a good point too, because I think there are some technology leaders and even departments that lose sight of the fact that every decision I make at my desk affects what goes on in the classroom. Whether it's like, are we going with Aruba, APs like, or like, whatever it is, it's going to come down to what happens in the classroom. And, you know, I think the biggest mistake that people make or that, you know, people can make is that they go to support someone and they, the first thing that they address is the computer in front of the human. And it's like, you. Not 80% of the time, it's the person that needs the support. And it's just something wacky going on with the computer or the software or whatever. But it's like, even though our focus is technology, we need to focus on the people first and then the technology around them. Because it's like, I can't tell you how many times I've walked into someone's office because they can't get something printed. And it's like nine times out of ten, it's because they got overwhelmed because they didn't know what. They missed a step somewhere. And you just need to be like, you're good. It's fine. Like, we'll figure it out. Take a breath. It's okay. It's not the end of the world. Like, there's no shame in questions because everyone's afraid to ask. They're like, I'm so bad at this tech stuff. I'm like, you're really not though. It's just, take a breath, you know? And so, I mean, that's, that's my. I just, I think that's so important to just make the technologies human centered. [00:35:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's really. Is a really good point in the context of what we're talking about with. With AI, because AI is not very human. It has human tendencies and characteristics. But at the end of the day, I think the. The balance that we. That we have around AI in our schools is going to be how humans can adapt and work alongside of that AI, as opposed to AI just kind of governing everything in our schools. And I think that's where. That's. That's where we need to be thinking so. Well, Emilia, again, I know we could go on for probably a long time about all this technology stuff, but I want to kind of wrap up here with a question that I ask all of my guests on the show, and that is, what strategies do you use to step away from the digital world right now? [00:36:53] Speaker A: So I actually. I have my first half marathon race on Sunday. [00:36:58] Speaker B: Whoa. Congratulations. Thanks. [00:37:00] Speaker A: I'm actually. [00:37:01] Speaker B: Is your watch telling you to stand? Is your watch telling you to stand up right now? You're like, you've been sitting way too long. [00:37:05] Speaker A: My garment's constantly just like, I'll get back from a long run and it'll be like, time to move. And I'm like, definitely not time to move. That's not happening. Um, but I. So right now, like, I think, you know, anybody who's training for a big race could tell you this, that, like, when you're training for something, if you're not, like, in the running, like, very much in the running community, it's like, what were my hobbies before running? Because it's so many, so many things focus on training runs that you're just like, this is all I talk about. This is all I do like. But so, yeah, right now, running is the big thing. I listen to re listening to Throne of Glass while I've been running, which has been great. But, yeah, once that half marathon's done on Sunday, I don't know, maybe running still. We'll have to see. Stay tuned. [00:37:50] Speaker B: Never, never running again. [00:37:53] Speaker A: I just. I miss, like, running for fun. That's it. [00:37:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, as someone who's run. I've run a marathon. I've run a couple halves. You know, running never gets old. It's. I totally can get that idea of, like, yeah, I just want to go out and just run for fun, look around at things and listen to music. So, yeah, I think you'll get there, But I think that's awesome. I think running is a great way to unwind and be out there and really kind of disconnect from things. Even though we're connected through watches and stuff like that, for our data points and all of our running, I think it's important that we, you know, get outside and, you know, it's a good lesson for our kids, too, as far as, you know, being outside, having fun, staying healthy, moving your body somehow moving your body and not, you know, just putting the screens down for a little bit. There's nothing. You're not going to find anything good on there. Nothing. Nothing is great right now in the news. [00:38:44] Speaker A: Sabrina Carpenter does not have a new album coming out anytime soon. It's fine, guys. We've got another year. [00:38:51] Speaker B: Another year. Okay. All right. Well, Amelia, this has been fun. This has been real. Thank you for joining me today on the pod and look forward to maybe hearing from you in another episode in another season. [00:39:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you so much for having me. [00:39:06] Speaker B: All right, [00:39:14] Speaker A: Sa.