Building Digital Foundations with Debbie Tannenbaum

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:13] Speaker B: Welcome to the Digital Kindness Podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Marcinik, and I'm so glad you're here. Today we welcome Debbie Tannenbaum to the pod. Debbie has quite the background. She is recognized as a 2024 ISTE 20 to Watch Award winner. Debbie is an ASCD Emerging Leader and ISTE Certified Educator, ISTE Community Leader, Author, blogger, and speaker. She offers schools a wealth of expertise with over 20 years of experience. She advocates for starting with pedagogy first and then transforming learning experiences by using technology, which is very near and dear to my heart. And I'm excited to hear what you have to say on these topics, Debbie. Debbie empowers elementary educators with practical strategies, innovative ideas, and insightful guidance for leveraging technology to amplify student success. Debbie, welcome to the pod. [00:01:11] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. I know we had to figure out timing wise, but I worked perfect today. [00:01:19] Speaker B: This is great. Yeah. And so I'm so glad you're here and I'm so glad you got the memo about matching me and my black T shirt that I wear on every pod. So this is. Sure. I love it. I love it. So, Debbie, you do a lot of work that I've been following and recently learning about. I heard your Ignite session last year at ISTE in Denver and I thought it was really powerful. And you know, a lot of times when we're at these conferences, we speak to folks who are in middle school or in high school and, and I always feel like, and someone who works in technology, we, we kind of, we're going to leave behind our elementary school practitioners and educators in many cases. And so I love that you're the intention and focus you make on teaching skills. Essential skills, essential technology skills. When kids first encounter technology, we assume digital natives a lot of times in school, but that term is very loaded. It's, I think, really naive to think that when we just assume kids can just grab technology and go to town with it. And I think we're in this place, in this post pandemic era of education where we were throwing technology in the hands of kids and a lot of those practices and programs in schools just kept going and we never stopped to think and reflect about how are kids getting essential technology skills to support and drive the pedagogy that's happening in the classroom. So in your experience, how can educators foster digital kindness and responsible online behavior among elementary students, especially when introducing new technology? [00:03:00] Speaker A: I just think it's really important. You mentioned the term digital natives, and we live in A society that isn't like this society. When I first became a teacher, our students can't just be digital natives. A digital native can go on YouTube, they can watch a video. They kind of know how to navigate general things. Most of it can. When we're talking about our students, we really want them to become digital learners. And one of the things that I noticed when I became a tech coach was that like you said, most of the materials I found were meant for the older kids. But nothing told me how it my young students how to navigate these things. And we live at an age where even our pre kids and in my district have iPads. Our kindergartners are using iPads. It's just part of the instructional experience. But a lot of times the only time that teachers are told is use a program like an ST math, use a program like Alexia or. [00:04:02] Speaker B: For a. [00:04:02] Speaker A: Lot of our teachers, but they don't know how to help their students know how to learn with technology. And their students certainly don't know how to learn. And so when I started giving my students instructions, I quickly realized that they didn't have the skills on how to be digital learners. And then when we talk about being online and having to interact with others using digital tools, they certainly didn't have that. I always joke. I've been doing a lot of writing about collaboration recently. I'm working on book number two, trying to get it published. The book and the chapter. I've been working on a lot this collaboration. And you think about the fact that when we teach kids how to work in groups in our real life world, we are very intentional about it. But when we teach kids how to interact with each other online, most of us we either don't know how to do it or we don't know where to start. And so really having our students understand how to respect each other's digital space, how to respond to each other, when you talk about digital kindness, that's so important. How do we interact with each other in a digital world but use these tools? And so I've been spending a lot of time with how do we first use these tools and show that we understand how to use these tools to learn, but then also when we are only tools with somebody else, how does that look? What does that sound like? How can we scaffold those experiences? Because far too often we're like, oh, you guys are on a Google Slide together and we don't teach how to work it. And then someone gets mad that somebody messed up their work and it's about Using that technology for good and using it to help each other and learn from each other. That's the whole idea of being a collaborator so far. Often our teachers think collaboration means just turn and talk. Collaboration means you're enriching ideas from learning from others. And in order to do that, we have to listen to each other. [00:06:13] Speaker B: I think that's all that's just great. And it's so good. Refreshing, I should say, to hear what you're saying, because I think a lot of the times we just. We assume that we throw kids into learning management systems and all these tools, and we just assume that they're ready to navigate those spaces, to communicate in those spaces, to collaborate in those spaces without any real guidance from. From. From an educator. And so I think that's just important. Um, I want to talk about something that you, You. You really highlighted in your. In your ignite session at iste that I was. I. I was really just blown away by it. And it seems like such a novel concept, but we don't leverage it enough in. In how we teach kids how to engage with technology because they. They understand what a. What a play button looks like or how to. How to pause the YouTube before they know how to do anything else. [00:07:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:07:09] Speaker B: And. And I think that's where I think I'll let you talk about it, but I think that's where we're missing, because I think introducing to kids this idea of icon literacy and helping young learners navigate digital tools, I think that's so important. So could you talk a little bit about this concept and how it contributes to building student confidence and promoting respectful, engaged digital interactions? [00:07:34] Speaker A: Absolutely. And it's funny because it's not something that I actually came up with. I was listening to a. Another podcast, the 10 Minute Teacher Podcast, and she was interviewing this teacher, Panna Asapatana, and she was talking about how iPads had been thrown in her face and her students couldn't hold on to the steps. And at that point, I had been struggling with teaching my kindergartners and first graders, and I was exhausted, and I saw it. And she was talking about how she started explicitly teaching her students icons. And I was like, well, what do I have to lose? Are exhausted. [00:08:06] Speaker B: Right? [00:08:07] Speaker A: And I started to do it, especially with my kindergarteners and my first graders, and I started to teach them icons. And before I knew it, my older kids, my fourth, fifth, and sixth graders, were like, looking at the things I was doing, and they're like, why aren't you using this with us? Because they didn't have it either. And I joked that that first year I created like, an icon wall, like a, you know, like a word wall. I don't do that anymore because icons have kind of changed so much. I don't. It's not a static experience experience. But I've started to really explicitly teach icons to my students. They always joke at the beginning of the year. They're like, we're playing icon bingo, aren't we? And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, we know all of them. I said that it's going to be a quick game. And I use a website called Bingo Baker and you can upload the icons on. And I explicitly teach them. And when I teach them, I don't just say, okay, you know, this is a microphone. But I actually hold up with, like a fake microphone. We go microphone or we go picture. I actually have some total body responses with it as well. So that way, when I'm teaching them those things, it's making those connections. And then somebody's like, but you're taking too long. For once I do that, I don't have to teach them those things again. And it's so important that we do it. I always. You know, today I was working in one of our enhanced autism classes, and I have one student who. He loves taking his picture so much and removing the background. Like, he finds a way to integrate it into every project. He knows how to do that, and he knows all. How to use all those tools. And that's amazing. And like that. I'm really happy about that. But we have to give our students that. And every time we switch to a new tool, I teach the icons and then we talk about how they compare because some icons are pretty universal. And then we have programs like my beloved Adobe Express in Canva, which have elements instead of all those other pictures. And we gotta teach our kids how to navigate that. [00:10:06] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:10:07] Speaker A: And I start my students with, you know, pretty simple programs. My favorite is wixie. And then I talk. We do book creator, but I try to start simple. But I want them to make the connections between the tools. And if we don't do those things, our kids aren't going to be able to use them for learning and understanding that I can. You know, I'm a big proponent of universal design for learning as well, that when we understand how to use those tools, those are all ways that we can share our learning with others and also learn ourselves. So it's become very important. And the students know that, like, we don't do anything until we do that. And at this point, this is my third year in my school, I'm getting to the point where the students I'm working with, that memory, muscle memory is built quicker and I spend less and less time. But it's especially important with our kindergartners and our first graders because their experience might just be with YouTube or playing a game. [00:11:09] Speaker B: Right. And I love that though, because, I mean, you're going on prior knowledge of these kids in many cases, I mean, they know how to. They know these icons, they know these, these universal icons. Like you said, like since the VCR was around or tape players, I mean, the play button has looked the same and on most devices and in our, in our digital world as well. So it's like. And I think that that also, like you said, it builds confidence within students. They get excited about it, they get engaged with it. It's a transferable skill. It's across the board. And like I remember saying, you saying in your ignite session, you know, you, you went through this, this, this scenario, this project, and you. All of a sudden all these kids, hands went up and they, they were just like lost and. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:11:54] Speaker B: And it was just. And I loved how you just kind of worked backwards and you solved the problem and, and were able to connect with, you know, and create this icon literacy or pull this from, from the. I can't remember who her name was, who you mentioned, and use that. And I think that's just so powerful. And it's so great to see that at the youngest age, because this is where we got to get kids and start to establish these really good habits in these digital spaces. And so I just want to kind of shift a little bit to your framework of choice, collaboration and clickability and how that aims to cultivate digital learning from the start. Can you elaborate on how each of these elements supports the development of a kind and inclusive digital classroom environment and just your approach overall? [00:12:43] Speaker A: Sure. And so I call those my three Cs. And basically I use them as a framework when I present a lot of times on how we should select digital tools for our younger learners or elementary learners. And it's really done very intentionally because most times when we're talking about digital tools, people don't know where to start with our younger learners, they're not sure where to start. So I try to keep it very basic. The first thing I talk a lot about is choice. Choice is building in that whole idea of universal design for learning, designing learning experiences that are inclusive to all of our students, giving students the Opportunity to do videos, to use audio, to use dictation, you know, use text. Giving them lots of different choices and making sure that it's not just one way. I'll never forget my first year at the school I'm at right now. I was in a first grade classroom and there was one student during math who refused to participate. But when he was able to make a video, sharing his thinking, he loved it. Well, we got to give our students opportunities to do that. He was an English, he was a multilingual learner and he was nervous about writing it, but he, you know, or a language develops earlier, but he was comfortable sharing it that way. So choice is super, super important because we want to give our learners lots of different ways of doing, of sharing. And it's also, you know, as a teacher, we don't want all of our kids giving us the exact same cookie cutter. We want to be able to let them hear each other. That builds. That's the whole idea. You know, when one student, student shares another student, listens to them, maybe they're going to get another idea from that. And that builds that, you know, that student discourse is so important and it doesn't necessarily happen with paper, but if we give our students lots of different ways to share, then they can also see each other's work. And it also gives them that opportunity to know that their work isn't just for the teacher, using lots of tools for that, which takes us to the next C, which is collaboration. And I joke, the collaboration was the thing I talked about that I was always scared of. I talk a lot about the fact that I got my daughter to drive. She's 19. I was afraid to take her out driving in the rain. And I finally take her out and I said, so how did it go? And she goes, well, I didn't die. I think about driving in the rain like collaborating because it was something that my students need to have, but I was afraid to do it because of all the what ifs. That's one of the reasons I've been doing so much writing about collaboration and I've developed and that was one plating where I could find nothing to help me. Right Coded system for of collaboration that I share about a lot. And that helped me to help my students to better collaborate. It helped me to scaffold that experience. But we want our students to use tools that have collaboration available, but not just available, but have it in a way that the teacher can scaffold. And it shouldn't just be like the Wild west, but you Know, teachers can assign students to work together, or teachers can teach students how to pick their partner responsibly. But it's a closed system where the teacher can still monitor. Because we want to make though it's not about taking things away, it's about giving things and showing kids how to use them. I really strongly believe. And then the last part goes back to that icon literacy and the clickability. We want us to use tools that they don't necessarily have to be able to read to understand how to use it should be intuitive enough that they can learn using symbols. I mean, I know you have a daughter. Correct? [00:16:15] Speaker B: Correct. 18 months. [00:16:17] Speaker A: She's little. Mine are all big. But I remember my son just got a job at our school today as an IA. [00:16:24] Speaker B: That's awesome. Congrats. That's great. [00:16:27] Speaker A: But like, I remember he recognized McDonald's and symbols way before he recognized anything else. Well, we can teach our students to recognize those symbols and use them to help our students navigate digital, you know, our digital programs. And if we do that, we have find these digital tools that are really versatile. Educators are. Can be overwhelming educator right now. So if we do what we need to do and we find tools that are really versatile and that are easy for our students to use, that provide them choice and allow them to collaborate, then we make our jobs a little easier because be we're working smarter, not harder. And it's so important for our kids to understand those things. And so when someone goes, well, how many tools do I need to use? I'm like, start with one really great tool. If tool I talk about isn't approved in your district, another one will be start with those really great tools. And I teach my. I'm working with fourth graders this year as part of the master schedule. And, and we started with one tool and we've continued to add tools. And now at this point, they have a whole toolbox essentially of tools that they can try. And now they are able to identify which tools they want to use. So it's no longer like, I have to use this tool because my teacher says, but I want to do this, and this program is going to help me to do this better than that program. And that's hit building in on those ISTE standards and really understanding how to use digital tools to help us learn. [00:17:59] Speaker B: I love that. And I just want to unpack a few things too, because just thinking about my daughter, I mean, it's like it's the lens I wear now for everything I'm thinking about. And I see the way she was so quick to just look at my phone and be able to push things very quickly and then go back to them. Like when she figured out how to play something or pause something. Same with an Apple TV remote. She can recognize the symbols on there that are transferable. And so I think that clickability is building confidence. It's helping kids understand that they can branch out, that it's not a one size fits all assessment or you're giving kids choice, you're allowing them to collaborate and see each other present different ways. And that's how schools should be because that's how life is. I mean, we're not all doing our work in this, you know, same line and this pro, this assembly line. We're, yeah, we're doing different things and we're sharing it and we're collaborating and we're, you know, we're making ourselves clickable on the, on the Internet. And, and, and that's all, that's all really great to hear because I think about that all the time. Like, what's my, how's my daughter going to be taught technology at her earliest ages? Like when she goes to school? Like, how is technology going to be. What is technology going to look like in four or five years? And then what is that? What. How is she going to be taught that? And, and that's something where I, I told my wife I'm gonna have to step back because I don't want to say too much, but I also, I also want to try and help support, you know, this. Oh, yeah, and Carl Hooker always said. Carl Hooker is great at that. He always talks to me about, he's like, you know, I don't, I don't try and, you know, pitch my message on them. I try and support and help the teachers at the school or my kids go. And I think that's an important piece. So. Yeah, yeah, go ahead. [00:19:49] Speaker A: No, I was just gonna say that's absolutely. And far too often our teachers of our youngest students are actually the ones who are most fearful of technology. We're doing it in my school, we actually just finished called lab sites, where it's essentially like an instructional learning cycle. And because of our testing, we weren't allowed to do it with our grade three through six teachers. So I invited our K to two teachers and we were doing something where we were using Gemini to talk about how we could include more student discourse in our lessons. And so my kindergarten and first grade teachers came to this experience and I think they were a little bit apprehensive. But as we continued to work on that. They were really. Because I think they thought that they were putting their kids into AI immediately. And I was like, no, no, no, that's. I'm going to show you how you can use it to help you. But I also want you to be able to see how you model these skills for your students, because although our students are not using things like Gemini, they are going to use tools that have AI built in, and they need to understand how they work. And it made me happy today, kindergarten finished to see how they saw the possibilities of here's how I can use it, but I can also then, you know, say to my students, well, I use this thing, you know, I use Gemini to help me come up with more ideas. And we did some of those ideas in class today. And, you know, we were, you know, and see that, because far too often I think our students either they think that, oh, we can't use it, or, you know, they try to use it on their own, and then they're not given any guidance. So I was exactly. Made me so happy that we got the opportunity this week to really dig deep into that. And at the end, they came up with a big, long list of ways they were going to use it. And at the beginning, they were scared to use it at all. [00:21:34] Speaker B: And I love that because that's how learning should be across all boards, whether you're an educator or a student. And again, you think about the context in which our students, our youngest students as early as kindergarten are growing up. I mean, these kids are growing up in a house that most likely has some kind of a device that you can speak to, and it can give you information. When my daughter hears Alexa going off, you know, or Siri, it's a kind of a weird thing for her at this young age. But kids are around that, like, information is kind of. They're growing up in a world where information is in the air. AI is going to make that only more and more interesting in how things unfold over the next few years. And so, you know, since we're on the topic of AI, I'm just going to jump into it. You know, what you talk about AI and introducing at the youngest age. Not. We're not talking about getting all kindergartens and kindergartners into, you know, submitting queries and generating them. By no means. So what should elementary teachers know about AI as, like, as a practitioner, and how should elementary students be learning about it at the youngest age? [00:22:45] Speaker A: Well, I think when we start talking about it, I always start with My teachers talking about it as almost like a teaching assistant. And that's what we were doing with these lab sites at school where we were talking about how, you know, how can I incorporate more student discourse. We realize that Gemini, you give, you create a gem. We have a closed Gemini system. It can help us to create great seating charts and groups and all these other things, but we have so many things that are in our heads that we have to keep track of that it can help us as an assistant. So that's one of the things that I always talk to teachers about, is it's a great. It's great for idea generation. I know I use it before I send any email to check for my tone and to make sure that it, you know, I haven't said something that I didn't want to say in the way I wanted to say it, but there's so many great uses for it. And I want my teachers to understand that because it's never been so hard to be an educator as it is now, and it gets. Because, you know, education in many ways is. Is under attack. And so we have to do everything we can to support each other. But when it comes to our students, it could be really simple things like, you know, showing how, you know, showing how large from data in a very simple way. I'm trying to remember the name of it. It's not Google Draw. [00:24:08] Speaker B: It's. [00:24:09] Speaker A: I think it's Autodraw. The Google Autodraw lets them do that and let them see the O rings. My fourth graders, I have on Adobe Express, and I have them, you know, you doing image generation. And I have them, you know, how would you describe yourself? How would you create a superhero? And really using their language skills to create. And it's so funny because, you know, and talking about the bias we might see, and that's one of the things I really love about Adobe Express is that it's really good for our youngest students to just start to test those skills out. But starting small. Right now, most of the AI lessons that I've been exposed to are mostly like middle school and up, but I'm hoping that in the future we'll see more and more. I know my district is starting to work on that this summer to develop lessons that are appropriate for our younger students, but teaching them how to use it as a tool, because if we don't teach them how to use it as a tool, they're going to abuse it. And, you know, every time I talk about AI, someone's like, well, the kids are going to cheat. Well, data shows that they were cheating the same amount before AI as they are during AI. So we need to teach them to use those tools for, you know, and I want them to see them what they can create. And so it's been really interesting to talk to them about, well, what language, how did you this. And have those discussions and with our younger kids even saying, well, here's we want to make what kind of words do we need to use and model that experience. It doesn't have to be every kid typing into a prompt, but doing it in a very safe way. I mean, right now, none of our students really should be using them. I know I'm supposed to get the chance to see Gemini 13 + tomorrow. I'm super excited about that, but that won't any of my students. But as tools like Adobe Express and canva, where it's pretty protected and it's integrated, even Book Creator has Adobe Express. And it gives our students that chance to dabble with it, but still in a protected way, and we can teach them how to use those things. So I. But it's all about it. But so much has changed, even in the last year. Like, I think about when my students used. Tried to start using AI last year versus what they can do this year. And it's, you know, it's really, it continues to evolve. So I'm sure this time next year we'll even have a different conversation. [00:26:34] Speaker B: Yeah, no, you're right. And it reminds me of like 10, 12 years ago when I was in the classroom and I had students coming into my classroom and they put like Snapchat on their iPad and they put all these different things. And I'm like, everyone's like, what is this? We need to block it, we need to ban it. And then it was something that I'm like, well, we didn't get ahead of this as adults, and we need to get ahead of this. And I kind of think about the same thing with AI and if, if just left, you know, if we bury our heads in the sand on it and just left it, let it, let it up to the kids, they're going to develop those bad habits. And what everything you, everything you said, I, I feel is so important because it's like we're, we're trying to cultivate the good habits at the earliest age because the challenge always with technology is that we can only control so much in our, in our timeframe, in our schools. And most kids, I've said this for the longest time, come to us with bad habits of technology. Even at our youngest age, we don't know if those kids are out at dinner with their family and they're just looking at an iPad for the whole dinner while the parents talk. And I mean, I see that all the time and I get it. But also it's like those kids are seeing, have a different perception of what a screen is and could be. As opposed to what you're saying is like, like think about how we can create and design and collaborate with these tools as opposed to just mindlessly consuming, which as adults and as kids, we all do, we all got in it. But there is a way out. And I like the way you're approaching this. We don't need to just throw all these kids into technology tools. I think we need to help break some of the bad habits, but introduce them in a way that's going to be engaging and exciting for them so that they can see the opportunities that they can create and develop with them. Because these are the kids that, these kids that are growing up now. I just, I heard my former colleague Joseph south talk about this. These are, we're, we're, we're teaching the next generation of AI designers and who knows what they're going to be building out in the next 10, 12 years. So it's, it's really, it's an exciting time, but it's, it's also a good time to, I think, stop and reflect on where we came from with technology and some of the, some of the misses that we had. [00:28:55] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:28:56] Speaker B: I think think about how we can get our kids at the youngest age and make sure they're, they're doing it with intention and purpose and mindfulness. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I think about with COVID and at least in my district where I work, before COVID it was very intentional as we got one to one, but during COVID we just threw devices at elementary students and teachers. And so we really need to take a step back and make sure we understand how we're using all of these things. And you know, I talk a lot about universal design for learning, but I don't say we're just using tech for tech. We're using tech because it provides universal design for learning. And I'm explaining how I'm showing the opportunities it gives our students. And it's funny because now when I walk into a classroom, whether I'm doing a lesson or not, they think we're doing something on the, on the iPads or on the computers, and sometimes I'm doing, coming in for something else, but they're excited about it. And some of the teachers are like, our kids aren't excited. Other times I'm like, because they see the value and they're doing a lot of learning, even if they don't realize it. So. But we've got to teach our kids all of that, right, you know, early. And I'm hoping that, as, you know, we hit as, you know, the next 10, you know, five to 10 years that we start doing that. And that's. It's funny, I used to present to everybody. Then I reached this point where somebody made a comment on my. My feedback saying, you don't have enough secondary examples. And it hit me and I was like, why am I trying to be everything when this is really what I'm passionate about? I'm passionate. I, like elementary educators don't get what they need. And that's really my big mission and my passion. And so I'm not going to try to be something I'm not. But I've really catered all of the things I do to meet those people, because I think it's. Rory Vaden says that you're uniquely positioned to be the person you once were. Well, I was that person who was lost, and I want to help others so they're not lost. [00:30:59] Speaker B: That's great. And that's so good to hear because you're right. I mean, I've been going to ISTE for quite a while now, and it's kind of good to see we're not quite there yet, but we, you know, more focus and attention around elementary education and just getting more people speaking about it like yourself, and really bringing it to the front. Because there has. There hasn't been a lot of focus on that. And that's where. That's where kids are starting. [00:31:26] Speaker A: I was so excited to get to do that, ignite, talk and talk about that, like, because, I mean, our school is a lighthouse school. So Richard Culada's kids actually go to my district. So we're part of a project that is working on with my district. And I'm like, every time I see him, I'm like, elementary. Elementary. [00:31:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:47] Speaker A: No, it's that elementary girl, right? [00:31:52] Speaker B: Yeah. But that's good because you're right. We need, we need voices like yours at big conferences, on the big stage, talking about these. Because these kids get to middle school, they get to high school, and we want them to have the foundational technology skills to be able to create, design, and learn at that level with a much highly more sophisticated skill sets that they're developing along the way. So, you know, I've always seen it, as I'm sure you do, is like, kind of packing this toolkit. Like we're putting in the basic tools and then they're getting, you know, socket wrenches in middle school and they're getting other things. And so we're building this toolkit so that when we send them off into the world, they're ready and they're prepared for anything. So, yeah, I agree. I want to kind of shift back to a little bit about. You also do a lot of work with educators and schools, and I think this is always. You talked about it a little bit earlier is just. I also feel that elementary educators have so much on their plate in comparison. You know, they don't. They don't have the college essays or they don't have the pressures of eight APs and stuff like that. They have a whole other array, a cachet of stuff to deal with on any given day. So how can teachers balance the integration of technology in their spaces in the elementary level and can bring in these topics like empathy and kindness so that kids understand how digital tools enhance rather than social media or rather than, I'm sorry, hinder their social emotional learning? [00:33:26] Speaker A: I think that it's really important to think about why you're using the technology. I do not believe every lesson needs technology, but I need to think. We have to be intentional. I think a lot about learning where we're dealing with real world issues, and then we're doing that collaboration because we're learning about other people and we're developing that empathy or we're working together to solve a problem. You know, things like that. It has to be authentic. We can't just say, oh, we're putting you in a group because we want to put you in a group. We're putting you in a group because we want you to share your strategies and see if your strategies change based on what your partner or the people in your group said. And that then we have to learn how to talk to each other because nobody wants someone to talk to them in an inappropriate way. And you know, that that starts with the adults in the building modeling it, but it also, you know, we have to think about, well, what are we doing and what is the best way to reach that and how can we build in those skills? Because unfortunately, those skills are not something that all of our students come to schools with those skills fully developed. And so we have to make sure students understand how to be empathetic, how to listen. That's a really Hard skill for a lot of our students, how to self regulate. All of those things are really challenging and educators have a lot on their plate. So I always think about, don't try to do everything. Find, like I said, find one tech tool and then think about when's the best place to implement that. I know a lot of my teachers this year have really done a lot with math because once they've done their whole group lesson, they've been able to use some of these digital tools in order to help their students, you know, practice and reinforce and giving them different ways of looking at things, but not just giving them, you know, saying we're going to go on the computer, you know, just because everything's super intentional and has a reason for it. And I tell them, so many teachers will say, I want to try this. Well, why? And so. [00:35:28] Speaker B: Right. [00:35:28] Speaker A: Really thinking about how we can do this. How is that digital tool helping our kids? And if it's not helping them, you know, sometimes doing it is the best way. And I think, you know, that's part of being a teacher and that human in the mix judgment is making sure, you know, and it's a skill you have to develop first. Your teachers aren't going to necessarily have that. And in our today's world where we have a lot of teachers who aren't coming out of certification paths, that's going to even take a little longer to develop. [00:35:57] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and I, I like that what you said is that, you know, technology doesn't have to be an everyday thing. And you know, and I've been in schools, I've observed schools that, you know, I walk around and I just see kids walk into a classroom and they just open the lids of their laptop and just assume that technology is going to be part of that day. And I think that's something, you know, again, these are like middle school and high school kids. And I think that's where I think that's important to develop those skills early on for intention and purpose. Like when is the technology needed? I, you know, myself, I tried to, I've tried to do that in the past year. I'm not, I was, I was, I'm. I feel like I'm continually hyper connected to my phone and my device. But I started to think about ways in which I could kind of put that around, put that down and do other things or maybe leave technology behind for doing X, Y and Z. And so I think we need to approach the same way in the classroom where technology is not going to be an everyday thing. It doesn't need to be. [00:36:56] Speaker A: Well, I think it's something that we can use on a regular basis, but it doesn't have to be in every part of the day. I think, you know, I, you know, I'm also not a proponent of if there is a way the technology can help not to give it to our students. But I don't always. I don't want our students to always assume I do technology classes. Well, not everything I do is necessarily technology is the best way to do it. So to me, technology is a tool. It's not a subject. [00:37:23] Speaker B: So there you go. I love it. I love it. Debbie. This has been a really engaging conversation. I'm sure we could go on for probably hours. We probably could see this year. I will not be at ISTE this year, unfortunately. I have a family engagement around that time, but plan on being in Orlando next year and then it'll be right in my backyard in Boston the year after. So excited about getting, getting back to iste. Was in Denver last year. It was great. I love Denver. It's such a great, welcoming city. So really fun, really fun. [00:37:57] Speaker A: I'm part of the programming committee, so I actually will be there. So that will be super fun. [00:38:03] Speaker B: Excellent. Excellent. All right, so we asked all of our, all of our guests one final question. What are some strategies that you use to step away from the digital world? [00:38:14] Speaker A: It's really funny when I saw that this was one of the questions. Really big birthday last week. And during my really big birthday, I took the day off of school and I decided to go do some yoga. And I went and got a massage, which is things I don't normally do. And when I finished that day, I had this big realization that I needed time to slow down. And so one of the I've made in the last nine days is that at 8 o' clock, I've started to put my phone away and stay off device. Take time to slow down because, you know, my job is on a screen all day. My side hustle, my business is on the screen and I'm looking at a screen and it's re. It's funny because I didn't think it was going to have an impact. It's changed my sleep in the last week tremendously. I'm sleeping so much better and just really trying to be intentional. I mean, so many times we're sitting in a room with another person who we could be having human interaction with, and we're on our phone scrolling and we're not really anything out of it. So I really, really Try. And I have, I have, you know, four kids, all adults, but we all do it so really intentional even. And like I said, even if that means it's that 8 o' clock cut off, which is sometimes hard because sometimes I'm like, oh, I forgot to do this and it's it, you know, but we have to take time away from it. Our lives are so busy and there's so much going on inside of our heads that if we don't take some time to, you know, step away from it, then we're not going to be as good when we come back to it. [00:39:55] Speaker B: So I love that and I love that you're doing it with intention. 8 o' clock, phone goes down and you're right. I think a lot of us, we, you know, I always tribute it as like, you know, I feel like when I go down into the rabbit hole of whether it's Instagram or YouTube or whatever, like I feel like it's putting your head underwater. And then you come up for air and you look around, you're like, oh, there's a perfectly. There's my wife, I could be talking to her. You know, there's my child doing something over there. I should be maybe focused there. So I think that's important for all of us. Important lesson for all of us is to know, think about and reflect on, you know, our day to day. We're also busy, we're also hyper connected. You know, anybody listen out, listening out there, take this, take this advice, you know, step away, you know, be intentional about stepping away from your technology because we don't, we don't need it all the time. [00:40:49] Speaker A: And I've been reading real books like I've been journaling, I've been reading real books. I've been getting back to some of the habits, habits that I used to do that I haven't been necessarily doing. And I'm like, it's kind of nice to take a break from it. And so I hope, you know, that more and more people start to think about that because if we don't model this balance. And yes, my kids are all adults, but I want them to see doing it too. If we don't model these things, our kids won't. You know, we're sending our kids up for really tricky situations when they're older because technology is meant to keep you on as long as possible. That's not a great thing about it. There's lots of great things, but we also have to be conscious of the things that tech, that technology does that can be harmful. [00:41:39] Speaker B: Right? No, that's great. And that's a really good place to end today. So, Debbie, thank you so much for being here today and bringing the energy to the pod over. We look forward to hearing about your book. Can't wait for that. And we'll have to have you back on to promote that and share what you're writing about. And thank you again. We look forward to and good luck to the remaining end of the school year. Hope it's a nice transition into a much needed summer break. [00:42:08] Speaker A: Thank you. It.