Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to the Digital Kindness podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Marcinik and I'm so glad you are here.
Today we welcome Brett Salakis to the prod. Brett, welcome.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: G', day, everybody. How you doing,
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Brett? I'm gonna. Well, first of all, I'm gonna say good morning to Brett because he is from the land down under and he's over in Australia right now. So he is just waking up on Thursday morning and over here in the States, it is currently evening on Wednesday afternoon. So this is one of the best things about technology is that we can always connect with our friends all over the world and at any time. So it's great.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: This is why it's always so important to have Australian voices on podcasts and everything because we're, we're just a little bit into the future. I'll give you, I'll give you a heads up on what's coming before, before that day even starts.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: This is amazing. And actually this is how I learned about AI. Brett was like, Brett was like calling me in the morning. He texted me, he's like, yeah, you got, there's this thing called AI coming. You got to get ready. And I was like, I was like in bed, I was like, I know what's going on. But he was right. He called it.
All right, well, let's talk a little bit about who Brett is. Brett is an education ambassador at hp.
He is an international best selling author of the book A Mammoth Teaching in the Digital Age.
A great book. Please get it if you're out there listening. And check it out. Brett is a speaker and keynote on the world stage and at his core, a passionate educator.
Brett, it's so great to have you. You are officially our first international guest on the pod and so welcome to you.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Well, very happy to be here. The only thing you left off on that beautiful litany of my past was former male model.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. You are a former male model.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: I mean, that's very obvious. You probably don't need to mention it. For anyone who can look up my bio, they'll be obvious and, and very, very obvious straight away.
[00:02:20] Speaker B: And I apologize. My, my big audience knows that I get really nervous when I have big A listers on this, on this podcast and I, I tense up, my anxiety kicks in and I, I just, I fumble over the important little details. So, yes, International male model.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: International male model. That's like, was it that Austin Powers, international man of.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: That is you. Austin Powers. You are, you are definitely our Austin Powers.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: Well, I'm glad to have brought a fancy accent to your podcast, but I know we've been having a little bit of, a bit of a joke, but when you reached out the other day, Australia is doing something quite advanced and quite, I guess trying to take a big leap forward, which is what prompted you and I to have this conversation. So do you want to set that up? Do you want to tell some of your audience why it was that you, you reached out and said, let's have a chat.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So this is a, this is a big deal. And, and you were the first person I reached out when I heard about this new law coming down the pike in Australia.
You are the first democracy in the world to ban under 16s from social media accounts. And this, this went into effect, I think December 10, which was last week.
So this is a little while ago. This is fresh out of the gate, fresh on the books.
The law stems from an amendment to the Online Safety act and aims to shift responsibility to platforms rather than parents, which is a big thing and I think was a big misconception. Kind of out of the gate with this, this law that, you know, I think when some people saw the fines and stuff associated with it, they're like, as a parent, they're like, well, how this is going to break us, that's going to bankrupt us. But it's actually going to the platforms. Age verification may involve identity checks and there might be raising some privacy concerns there.
I read that in the Washington post and that under 16s can still access non restricted digital services, for example like messaging, gaming.
And they mentioned logged out social contact.
You know, this is sending ripples around the world. This is a really big deal.
I actually just read the other day that Denmark is starting to put in some provisions to potentially be the next country to roll out something like this. So, you know, Brett, I know this is a very new topic. This is a very new subject. You don't have any, we don't have a lot of data on it. It's very new. But you live in Australia.
You, you probably known this was coming for quite some time. I'm sure it's been all over your news.
So can you kind of just speak to some of your initial reactions and impressions, you know, from this new law?
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll do. And I think it's important to say what you just said there. I don't want to falsely present myself as an expert or a legal advisor or some sort of legislative guru on this.
I'm an educator. I'm passionate about education, technology and father. And, and I'm. And I'm an Australian, so I'll give it, I'll give my take from, from that perspective rather than any sort of official insightful sort of capacity. But yeah, so there, there is this, this law is not without controversy. I will, I will say it is experimental, it is brave, it is bold, it is new.
Because of that, I think they're aware, the government is aware and that society is aware that you can't get something absolutely perfect first go. But they do want to do something, I think collectively around the world. We know that there has. For all the positives that social media can bring. And there are positives. Like that's how you and I connected and met each other.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: So there definitely are positives and there are positives for the youth too, and I'm happy to sort of chat about that as well. However, there is a pretty. You'd be a pretty bold person to claim that there hasn't been a negative mental health impact on the youth of society.
So with that in mind, the government actually had a very bipartisan. All sides of the House were very clear on. Yes, let's do something. This didn't receive too much challenge and the law moved very, very quick. It's actually only being proposed. It's been less than a year from inception concept being floated to actually being enshrined in law. So, and, and the actual legal framework that when they voted it and put it officially through Parliament and it got, you know, got the, you know, upper house and lower house sort of approval in Parliament, it's actually only took them a few months to actually come into law. So like basically they gave the tech companies about six months to. To get ready. So the law came in six months to do something. You mentioned fines.
Basically there is a. So just, just, just to be very, very clear for everybody listening, so what has happened is any child 16 under 16 is not allowed to access social media, is not allowed to have a social media account.
And the impetus has been put on the tech companies themselves if they are not seen. And I actually wrote it down so I got the wording exactly right for you.
Where does it say we took a few little notes for you? I can't say it right now, but basically if they are not seem to be doing adequate enough work, the company themselves will be fined 49.5 million million.
So they must be proactively. Why can't I see that there? Damn.
They must take.
The keyword is reasonable. Reasonable actions to Prevent someone over 16 under 16 actually accessing the social media site. So again, lots of legal debate. What does reasonable action mean? And then you mentioned facial recognition and a whole bunch of other privacy sort of issues. So there is not one singular. This is the, this is the methodology that you need to use to make sure that you. You have this. The tech companies themselves have taken it up, being challenged to. To do what is reasonable in actually stopping under 16s from accessing social media. So they've started with 10 platforms. They've identified 10, and it's those 10. So it's things like Instagram and, and TikTok and Facebook and YouTube.
YouTube was probably the most controversial inclusion, but they're the 10 that they're starting with.
And then it's likely to broaden out. Once those 10 are done, it's likely to start broadening out.
That's the beginning of the law. Is there anything that you want to flesh out? Because there's a million different directions that we can go. Yeah. What do you have a first question?
[00:09:47] Speaker B: I think a couple things that really kind of come to mind and you kind of alluded to it earlier, and I kind of want to just talk through it because I think a lot of people see this and read this and think that, oh, well, there's no way they can monitor this or there's no way that this can actually really be a foolproof thing.
And I think I'm going to go back to what you said. I don't think this is intended to be a silver bullet to, you know, make sure every under 16 is not going online. You know, as with anything, even with, like, you know, I think a biggest topic in 2025 in United States was around, you know, cell phone use in school and cell phone bans.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, we actually. It's not a. That's a global. That's a global thing. Not just the U.S. we had the same debate, right?
[00:10:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's not. It's not foolproof. It's not. Every student's not going to do it, and every student. Students are going to sneak it in, they're going to access it on a.
I was having a conversation the other day about, like, now students are, have. They have meta glasses. And so, you know, it's. It's like, it's like there's always something coming. And so I think what's.
I kind of want to talk through this, like, get your kind of take on it as an Australian citizen, you know, and also as a father, as a parent, you know, what are Your initial impressions on how this impacts you as someone who works in this space, but then also someone with two boys or I think two boys.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: Right?
[00:11:16] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:11:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well actually.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Bro.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: Bro.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: Five. Five.
Five.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: So
[00:11:28] Speaker A: my kids are adults. My kids are adults.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean just kind of wearing that and.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: And just what do you know, what is your.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: I still have one. My, my youngest, my youngest is still, is, is still impacted by this new law. So you know what, how about, how about I do a quick fire because I have a few different takes depending on what I'm wearing. Like from a, from a, a parent view, from just a general sort of citizen, from an edtech person as well. So from a parent look, I think it strengthens the support of parents who have concerns about, about social media. Like I think we all know we want to do right by our children. I think we all know that our children, we want to be able to protect our children. I think most parents want to be proactive and protect their child no matter what.
And as unfortunately we know that's not the case for, for everybody. Like not everyone is as vigilant as the next person.
And that's true for real world scenario and that's true for online scenario. What this does is this gives extra support to people who want to be proactive and protective of their children online because we know there are nefarious things that can happen online.
So this, this strengthens that resolve.
2 I think what it also will do. So from just a global, just a citizenship sort of thing, I think what, what it has the power to do is break the cycle a little bit. Like we know that the developing adolescent mind can be addictive behaviors and all that sort of stuff.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: So I think these initial few years are going to be hard because a lot of these students, as you say, like it's not foolproof, it's not going to be 100% ironclad, cannot get through.
But this initial batch will probably find workarounds, but perhaps the 10, 11, 12 year olds who don't have that, that full addiction to social media because it will be that little bit harder. Their friends won't be on there, so they won't need to connect.
They'll find other pathways to connect, perhaps more traditional pathways to connect. I think there's a, there's a really good line that I read the other day. So it's like hopefully allowing our children to develop, develop their identity not driven by an algorithm but actually driven by their environment. So that's back to that Parent group that's back to that friendship group that's back to that school group. Develop your, develop your personality by the people that you're with rather than what the algorithm is shaping like your personality and your worldview. I think that's a, that's a healthy thing.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: That's a, that's a really good thing. It's a really good thing. And I mean I, I always talk about like, man, I, I think about kids in the last 15 years of growing up and everything is recorded, everything is out there. There's, there's these like Personas that kids create and the harm that they can do in these sites and you nailed it. Like their minds, their developing adolescent minds are not geared and not ready for these kinds of spaces. They're not ready for that. They're not ready to be seeing other kids doing stuff or with teen girls and the perception of what beauty is online and how they see that. And it's just like, and it's like, I think this is definitely the right move. And I was just actually at a conversation, I did a fallout webinar last night with Matt Joseph, our good mutual friend and shout out Matt. And you know, we, we were talking about this like, you know, this. The kids just aren't ready for this stuff yet. I think, I think a lot of this stuff was thrown into kids, you know, lives and the pandemic didn't help.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: You know, the pandemic definitely with, with us having accelerated some of the concerns and yeah, social isolation. And I will say one of the elements though because depend. One of the things that the positives of socials is that when you are physically isolated and you can't connect with people, there are, there are, there are a percentage of people who are isolated, find their, find their tribe. Like you, you might have that loner or that stereotype sort of person who doesn't fit into, you know, they don't fit in at their school environment, perhaps they find a place to fit in online.
Those people are going to be negatively affected. And I think that's one of the, because the overarching and from the political perception and the media perception is this is all good. This is a great thing. And I think it's easy to have a very simplified narrative of yeah, let's, let's ban social media for, for under 16s and do all those healthy things and we're all going to hold hands and be happy and all that sort of stuff and the world's going to go back to this beautiful term of pre social Media like okay now.
And that is, but you know, unfortunately that is like we know sometimes in, in sometimes mass media lacks a little bit of nuance. So so but that is the overwhelming feeling and that is what my overwhelming feeling is too. Like let's help students be safe and loved and cared for and nurture them and help them grow. However, I one of the elements that's not quite being discussed yet and I was very, very fortunate enough last week to actually go out to a school and I was watching a principal, I won't name the school, but I was watching a principal actually address a year nine sort of cohort. So probably the target group that's most affected are your high school teachers. Know year nine grade nine is probably one of the trickiest, the trickiest emotional sort of year groups to be able to cohorts to be able to manage and there is a need at the moment of you know, they are going to struggle with that plug being pulled like, like that they are emotionally connected. They are their society sort of connection is through that way when you quickly withdraw and remove that there is going to be fallout. So a lot of schools being very, very proactive in having like counselors and support and Because a lot of the ways that you could. I think there was a, I saw a statistic like a lot of the ways that students now under, under 18s gain mental health access is actually via social media. Like they, they actually access their social that they don't, they don't have that, that sort of I guess established old school sort of network. So when they want to look after their mental health they actually do use social media to, to find mental health institutions. Kids help line and things like that.
[00:18:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:33] Speaker A: So that all those pathways are actually going to be turned off at the same time. So there is that. There is I guess that, that short term risk and short term sort of turbulence that we do need to make sure we are looking after the students in our, in our care with that.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and you're. And you're exactly right. And I've always felt there's this duality to the social. Social media is I think that there are a lot of kids that find, find community specifically. Yeah, I've read there's statistics around LGBTQ students, kids finding community, finding support in those spaces.
You know and I think there's also you know, a lot of ways in which like you said some kids, this is a great way for them to connect where you know, think about some kids have social anxiety and you know, think about that like how are they going to connect and how are they going to, you know, find those ways? And I think that's going to come. But I think there's a lot of.
There's always been this like, glowing, amazing opportunity with social media. And I think it was, it was there when it all first came out. And I remember 2006 and I remember, you know, Facebook kind of coming on board and then 2008 when Twitter was this, you know, beautiful Main street and you know, to see all those kind of companies just grow and become big and gross and then just really not care about the people that are putting all those dollars in their pockets, it, it turned into something really dark. And it's something that I don't think any, any of us want our kids going in there unfettered.
The other thing I want to bring up too is I think this is an opportunity for schools. I think this is a real opportunity for schools to take these kids who are, who are in that like kind of grade nine, who are the 12 year olds, the 13 year olds who may have had access to it or may have had to dip their toes in it, but to really teach them about how to understand, to navigate and work within these ecosystems. Because I think that's the problem is kids were just signing up for things and they were clicking terms of service, which they had no idea what was about. And then they were out there, you know, with all these people. I mean, when I would go out there with all those people when I was growing up, it was, you know, down the street or up at the playground. And yeah, my parents maybe didn't know where I was or it was after dark, but they knew I was like within this scope of being able to be found. And now, and they knew the people in the neighborhood, now it's like you have no idea who your kid has
[00:21:11] Speaker A: actually no idea who you're talking to.
Yeah.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: So I think it's an opportunity for schools to really start to put in programming around this, this kind of thing so that we can prepare our kids for being able to access those tools mindfully, purposefully and intelligently.
[00:21:29] Speaker A: I think, particularly in the short term, that there's not just an, an opportunity, but almost an imperative. Like if you're going to take something away, you need to replace it with something. You can't exactly, you can't just cut something off and then just go, yeah, now, now go back to this golden age of traditional social connection.
There needs to be the appropriate support. And from what I have seen anecdotally, when I am going out to schools, I believe I am, I am seeing that and I hope that that actually is happening on that, that broader scale.
There is, there are, from a technical perspective there are lots of questions as well. So it wasn't just a whole, a hard cut.
Basically every kid, my son included, my 15 year old included, like basically was wake. They all woke up.
Him and his mates all woke up like super early in the morning and logged onto Tick Tock and stuff like that were like oh can we still. Oh yeah, it's nothing, it didn't even work.
But, but basically the companies have a few months to comply and they're going to be testing a few different, I guess verification tools and techniques and sync because like, like I, I started this with, it is an experiment like how does this work? What is the, the, the best way?
And so that I think that the different tech companies will try different things and it comes back to what that language in that legislation is Reasonable, reasonable efforts.
Now that's actually going to be interesting. That's, I think what will determine the success or failure of this legislation is how government and legally how do we then interpret and react to what is perceived to be. Yes. Are they doing, are these companies doing enough?
Are they taking reasonable steps? So that is going to be a crucial bit. So like yeah, if, because like you said things are not going to be foolproof. 100% students are going to find workarounds and all that sort of stuff. And with like straight away now I've already heard of a few like AI generated images. So a lot of it is facial recognition. So kids are just putting, yeah make up getting AI to age them and then putting the camera up to that. And I think even different, like on different console games actually making characters so it looks like three dimensional and then scanning like a three dimensional character in a game and saying yeah that's them and all that sort of stuff. So kids will do, kids will try different things. And you know what, that's the prerogative of a teenager to be cheeky and try and break the rules. That's, that's a normal part of human development.
What's going to be interesting is how the government legally then challenges situations or scenarios where they feel that contract has been breached, where there has not been reasonable effort to do that and how vigorous they then go after these, let's be honest, very, very large multinational billion dollar companies who can afford a lot of lawyers and all that sort of stuff.
So it'll be very, very interesting to see the actions that come from that. And that, I think, will determine the longevity of the success of this particular initiative.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that reasonable effort is going to be an interesting part to interpret, and I think that's going to, I mean, it's going to create new precedent in Australian law where you're going to have.
It's going to be a lot of trial and error and there's going to be a lot of, A lot of these cases just winding up in courtrooms and, you know, it's going to be.
It's all new.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: And I am curious with you. I'm curious to see how, how this, how this goes, you know, in the, in the short term. But I think that, I think you said it earlier. I think, I think the long term of this is, is where this is going to really have the impact. I think in, you know, in five, ten years when, when the young kids are, are still and this is kind of, this, this law's been more formalized and, and have kind of, has kind of been through the, the legal grind of those things. It. It then kind of comes out on the other end and it's like, you know, I'm glad we did that. Like, and now kids are just not as, as they're focused on other things or they're doing other things or they're making friends other ways. And, you know, I don't think they're. I don't think we're ever going to back. Like you said, we're not going back to this, this pre, this pre social media, pre Internet time of everyone just like walking down the street and saying, hey, how you doing? Or I met your grandmother on a porch and we said hi to her. Two days later, later we were married. Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah. So I mean, it's like there I. And I think it's, I think it's an opportunity, though, for, like I said, I think it's an opportunity for school leaders and schools to start to put in some, you know, ways in which.
Well, let me ask you, let me. Because I've followed Australia, you know, ed tech for pretty much my whole career. When I was first doing work with, with iPad1 to ones, I looked to a lot of your schools and a lot of, you know, places, cities over there that were really doing amazing work, really doing it right. And I think they were really taking the time and energy to share that out.
What do you think schools, how do you think schools should respond to this and how should school leaders react to this policy going on the books?
[00:27:14] Speaker A: Look, I think I want to be super clear as well.
And I'm glad to have a nuanced conversation. But the reality is I am and I can't get away from it. I am pro edtech. I believe there is an important factor future of technology in education.
Because the reality is, whether people like it or not, there is a future of technology in all aspects of life. And if we are to, I believe, like I like to say this, like we know that schools establishments to prepare students for future workforce. Like that's when you boil it down. And we had as a teacher, when you put on your teacher hat you talk a lot about schools exist to empathy and create social change and uplift others and create safe havens and all that stuff is beautiful and true.
However, the institution or concept idea of school or education is so that government, a country can educate its youth, its younger generation, so they can enter the workforce. And we know a highly educated workforce tend to have highly paid jobs that creates great tax revenue and that funds all the social programs that we want in our society. We need taxes, we need high paying jobs because we want good roads and we want hospitals and we want police force and all that sort of stuff. So like that stuff has to happen. The reality is technology is going to be in those jobs of the future. So if the role of school is to prepare students for the workforce of the future, then technology has to be part of that.
I come from that point of view, so I'm already going to be pro tech. Now that said, getting the balance of humanity and tech correct is super duper important because we don't want technology is better when it serves humanity, when it actually uplifts humanity, not when it replaces it. And I think I like even like let's talk AI for a second.
Let's do it.
The umbrella term of AI because AI actually plugs into this, let's be honest, AI plugs into this legislation.
The umbrella term of AI is cybernetics. Like AI is a branch of technology that out of cybernetics.
Cybernetics in itself as an umbrella term is meant to actually support humans. It's the term itself when you break down the meaning of it actually is to support, to support humans. So our technology needs to serve humanity, to help humanity. So if we take that concept and then that's how we should look at socials. Like how do we use the socials to be able to serve humanity? So the wording that you use, the offline not logged in, you use that phrase when you were reading one of the scripts there that actually was carefully worded but basically that's talking about YouTube. So a student will still be able to see YouTube videos. Teacher will be able to still. We know that YouTube is educational. When I, you know, I, I broke my, on my mirror, on my, my passenger mirror on my, on my car the other day and I needed to get some new glass and I need to install it. I don't know how to do that. I went onto YouTube, I watched what needed to be done, I bought the right part, I pulled out the broken bit, I installed it correctly. Would not have known how to do that if it wasn't for YouTube. YouTub me how to replace the glass on my passenger side or mirror on my car. Now that said like we know there's a million different ways to, to use YouTube instructional video in, in, in the classroom and it's a great resource for it. That can still happen in a non logged in offline way. So I can still share.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: Got it. Okay.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: An information video, but it can be there. So and I think that that is that balance, that is that way of how do we use these things so that it serves humanity, so it serves learning and not actually we are just slaves to the algorithm. And I think that's that important balance.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: You're exactly right. And I couldn't have said it better myself because it is the important balance of how does the technology work as a tool to make, serve humanity, to create new efficiencies in our lives, to connect us in meaningful ways with people across the world, everywhere, so that we can have conversations like this.
And I think the part where school needs to start to kind of, and I'm with you, I believe kids need to be exposed to AI. They need to be exposed to these tools because we hope that kids see what better project than a kid to figure out, hey, here's all the problems with social media. Now I'm going to take that and I'm going to solve all those problems.
And that's what school's about. It's about getting ideas, being exposed to things and then tinkering and solving problems so that they can go out and make an impact on society. And so I'm with you. I think they need to have access to these things and they have to understand what they're about.
But I think having kids unchecked in these spaces where they're just consuming and they're just like, you gave the perfect example of your car. I mean I do the same thing but like you, you actually have the, you have the education and the understanding that when you look up that thing about fixing your rearview mirror, you're not going to be starting a conspiracy podcast for flat Earth, you know, enthusiasts across the world where, like, and if anyone has ever been on one of these YouTube kind of rabbit holes, like, you go down one, you know, look up the pyramids, for example, and see where you end up, you know, you know, four hours later. So it's, it's a really wild kind of ride. But I think, you know, you and I have that understanding where it's like, oh, yeah, I need, I need this, I need this tool to solve this problem.
And, and I hope that's what kids can do when they have access to technology in their schools. They can be like, here's a tool with a lot of problems.
I'm going to try and solve that. And I think that's where we can get back to that in our schools, where that kids can be exposed to technology, but are then figuring out what they like and what they don't like about it so that they can help for the next generation technology on our
[00:33:57] Speaker A: terms, technology on our terms on terms, rather than slaves to the algorithm.
And I think it sets a very nice precedent too.
As we know the AI world is rapidly evolving and changing and maturing as well. By having this legislation in place, this theoretically probably sets up a similar sort of conversation, if not legislation, conversation about how do we manage AI for our youth and our youth's consumption of AI as well could, which I think with the race and the evolution of a lot of these AI tools, we haven't really been able to have what is the, the emotional and developmental impact on, on, on our youth with, with all of the, I guess, the emerging AI tools. So, I mean, that's a, that's a whole other topic in a conversation. But I think what happens is this legislation sets up Australia very, very well to then in the near future start having a very mature, nuanced conversation about how we want AI affecting our youth as well. So I'm very happy for it, I think. Is it perfect? No, no, no.
Was it, was it, did it move through very fast and it didn't have sort of some of that, that debate that we'd like to have at democracies? Yeah, that kind of is true. It didn't move very fast.
I think more broadly, though, like, the weight of support, including from, from myself and the weight of support is that it's, yeah, like, this is a good, this is a good thing. We want every single person, you're a brave person to Say you don't want the youth of the world to be safer like that. We want the youth to be safe. I'm pro technology. I want the youth to be safe when they use technology. I don't think there's going to be too many people who are against that.
I'm very proud, I'm a very proud Australian. I love my country and I'm very happy that we're taking this very, very proactive stance. Let's get a balance of technology and humanity, right?
It might need a little bit of tweaking. I mean, that's the beauty of democracy, right? Like we put a law in place and we can, we can, we can tweak it, we can change it, we can debate it and we can negotiate and we, and we do all those sorts of things until we do, we get something that, that is working and then it is functional and then, and then once we've got that, we can, we can start tackling some of the other things. But it's exciting.
But in the short term, I do think we need to be making sure we are looking after the mental health and wellbeing of those students who are reeling from having. They're going to like, let's say, let's. Withdrawal symptoms from something that they've been addicted to. That, that is something that over the summer holidays, because we're coming into a summer break now, like most schools finish actually either this week or next week in Australia. So obviously as you guys in the northern hemisphere go into winter, we're about to go to our summer break. I will say it's interesting timing to have social media law just before the summer break.
I think if I, if I, if I look at it with positivity, perhaps the idea is that kids will have the summer to de.
I guess detox. Yeah, detox. Have their detox of their social. So they, they restart the new school year fresh without the influence. I think, I think the timing of it, that must, that logically that seems like what the thinking was.
The counterbalance of that, like actually heading into holidays with a quick social disconnect of where suddenly you, you can't connect to your friends for the, for the summer. That's. I mean, there is some mental health questions there, but I do understand the logic of probably having that, that detox, having that disconnection and then starting the new school year next year because we kind of go on a calendar year.
So in January when we all come back to school, actually.
Yeah, starting that, that new school fresh.
I think, I think there's a, I understand the positive logic of that, but look, it's, it's going to be an interesting thing to unfold. Perhaps maybe even we should reconnect in about 6 months, 12 months. Let's. And let's have a review of. So this is just like you said, it happened seven days ago. This is new, fresh.
The companies have a couple of months to take, to put in place this reasonable, this reasonable action. So they haven't all just been switched off all night. But last, I will say, there was a, a principal friend of mine who's like in his early 70s, did tell me he got kicked out of Instagram last night and had to like age verify himself. So he thought that was hilarious. But that's great. Maybe we have a review of how it's, how it actually has gone. What's the first six months like? Or what's the first 12 months like?
[00:38:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a great idea. And I was even thinking, like, we should definitely do that in the first few months, like once the kids come back from, you know, from summer holiday. And then, you know, I'd really be curious as like, what this looks like in a year, you know, But I am, I am one thing I am really impressed with. Like, I'm glad you shared this too, because the, the speed at which this law kind of came into place is really impressive. Like, that's just, that's just, that's just never happens. Like, there's, you know, so I think that shows that there is, there are a lot of people out there that do care and understand that there's a mental health crisis around these. And one of the biggest catalysts for that is social media in a lot of our kids. And so, yeah, like you said, I'm glad it's happening.
You have every right to be proud of Australia because this is a good thing. I think it's a good thing.
I'm sure they're gonna like with anything. There's gonna be critics and, you know, I'm, I'm hoping the US starts to look at this as well and say, like, hey, you know, let's, let's try it over here. Let's, let's maybe try it and you know, and maybe in 25 years we'll get it, we'll get it passed. But I'm not, I'm not gonna hold my breath on it. But yeah, and like I said, you know, there's other countries. Like, I think Denmark. Like I said, I read recently today that Denmark is, is starting to look at that. So I thought, I think you're going to start to see this become more than normal across the, across the globe than to not have it. So.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think if we fast forward, say five years time, I think we will say that most Western countries will have something similar in place. I think that would be likely.
But it's very, very cool to be on the tip of the spear of doing good. And as an advocate for technology, doing good to make sure technology happens correctly in schools is a very, very good thing.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: Like, Exactly. And I think there's a lot of people who will look at this and say, like, oh, this is bad for technology. This is bad for. This is actually really good for technology, for technology in schools, for kids to be able to understand what the technologies are and how to use them effectively, as opposed to just like we want them to be creators, we want them to be idea makers and to use technology to their advantage.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: Not to just.
[00:41:24] Speaker B: Not to just look at what everybody else.
[00:41:26] Speaker A: Passive consumers. And this is what this, this will stop the passive consumption and actually put it back in. Okay, we're going to use tech. Let's use tech well to create and make and actually build wonderful things. You know what it also does?
It also put. Put on my edtech sort of ambassador hat here. What it also does, a lot of the people who, you know, every school has people who are resistant to technology and they will say, oh yeah, all kids do is get on there and play games or get on their socials. And you know what this does is actually that this eliminates that argument. So, all right, you know what? We've made it safer. We heard you.
[00:42:07] Speaker B: We listen to you.
[00:42:08] Speaker A: We've made it safer. Come on, let's play. Let's do good together, right?
[00:42:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're. I think you're spot on, Brett. I think we could probably go on for another hour with this, but I think we will have you back on in. In near the end of January to talk to talk about where this is going. I think this is a really exciting topic. I think it's a really, a topic that a lot of people are very curious about and want to know more about. So I think we'll. We'll definitely have a re. Have a part two of this conversation coming down the pike.
But I, I want to end with one final question that I do ask all of my guests, and it is what strategies do you use to step away from the digital world? So it kind of actually fits within this, this context of our conversation. So what do you do to kind of get offline?
[00:43:00] Speaker A: I'm going to say two things. I'm going to say two things, all right? One, I'm blessed to live in Australia. So we're surrounded.
We're a big island, but we're surrounded by water. So my happy place is in the ocean. I love to snorkel. I like to go scuba diving. I don't know that very often, but I love to snorkel. And the best part of going for a swim, and this is why it's so good coming into summer. The best part of going for a swim and going for a snorkel is it doesn't matter. It doesn't. There's no WI fi under the water. There's no.
No, I'm not checking my emails.
I'm not getting pinged on my socials.
I'm just swimming around looking at the fish, looking at the seaweed.
So I love, I love it because that being in the water is a forced disconnection. Um, but I will say as well, okay, so that's my serious answer.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: Now.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: My fun answer is about two and a half years ago, I hadn't been on a holiday. I haven't taken a break for a holiday. Like I think off the back of COVID and then changing jobs and all that sort of stuff, but really hyper focused on work and the world probably for about five or six years. And I was changing out of schools into corporate, all that sort of stuff. I just hadn't had a break. So I was just getting to the point where it's like I needed a rest and I went on a cruise. First time I had been on a cruise in like 20 something years.
And cruise is probably a little bit different in Australia compared to America because you, you can go up and you can go down. You've got lots of other little countries close. When you go on a cruise in Australia, you go from Sydney, you hit right, like, man, it's the Pacific Ocean. There's. I mean, there's like, there's a long way between here and a little dot. There's a little dot of Fiji and Vanuatu and then there's a whole bunch of nothing until you get all the way to South America or North America.
So you know what? Again, the WI FI signal, not so great in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.
So I went on this cruise and I remember my first day, I was so stressed. I was just, I had just been under a lot of.
Under the pump a lot and, you know, busy, busy, busy, got on the cruise Coordinated a few things. Got a strawberry daiquiri. We sailed off, we took off and I felt by the time I finished that strawberry daiquiri, it just went down, down, down, down, down there. Frozen. Frozen daiquiri. We were out. I had. By the time I'd finished my. My phone had lost reception and for the entire cruise I was disconnected from everything. And I thought, wow, wow. This forced disconnection where I actually just socially with people. I went off and played bingo. I went off and. And did trivia. I love, I love me some trivia. Played lawn bowls. Yeah. Did all that. Went for my swims in the pool and did all that, you know, met a whole bunch of new people and danced and all that sort of stuff. And I thought. And all whilst. Whilst actually without that, without that connection to the Internet.
It was nice. It was a nice forced break. Came back to 14 million emails, but it was a nice.
So swimming and cruising. My two favorite ways to disconnect.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: I love that. I love that. And you know, I actually was lucky enough to spend some time down under. I was there about. I think we. Before we were talking here 23 years ago and I learned how I got my scuba license when I was there. And it was some of the most peaceful times ever because you just, you hear the water, you hear the bubbles coming out of your tank and it's just like you're in a big fish tank and just like you're looking around and you know there are other people there with you in your crew, but it's really. If you kind of put the blinders on, it's. It's an amazing experience.
[00:46:39] Speaker A: You know what? I was swimming the other day about two weeks ago, I had a big turtle come up next to me and.
Oh, man.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: Is he on cell phone? Was he on a cell phone?
[00:46:47] Speaker A: Yeah, he was. He was, he was actually, he was. He was actually getting all his socials in order. He was under 16. Right.
He was trying to like work out that. Let's all move to I.
But no, no, look, it was. That's good fun, my brother. Thank you so much for the invitation. I love that we've been able to come on and talk about something that is very progressive, not only here in Australia, but globally and is going to have a huge impact on all the people that we have in our care or the youth of society. And they're learning.
[00:47:24] Speaker B: Great. Brett, can't thank you enough.
Awesome to have you here. We're going to have you back, like we said. So all you listeners out there, make sure you out Brett and all his work.
Check out his book coming in, new
[00:47:40] Speaker A: book coming in about two months as well.
Fable, Fable spelled with AI. I've written a whole bunch of ESOP style fables about all the different issues, all of the different challenges with ethical challenges with AI and education, but done in in in fable form.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: I love that. I love a good surprise drop of news that comes on this podcast that, you know, this episode that I can already see the analytics going through the roof. So let's only hope.
Brett, it's been a pleasure.
Thank you for your time and energy today and we'll have you back on to talk about part two on this really important topic. So thank you again.
[00:48:21] Speaker A: Anytime. My brother, Sam.
