Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign hello and welcome to the Digital Kindness Podcast. I am your host Andrew Marcinik and I am so glad you're here. Today we are welcoming Dr. Matthew Joseph to the pod.
Matthew Joseph is the Assistant Superintendent of Technology and Learning in New Bedford, Massachusetts, right next door to me here just down the road of Pete Clays.
He is also the CEO of X Factor. Need to you consulting and publishing experience such as Executive Director of Teaching and Learning, Director of Curriculum and Instruction, Director of Digital Learning and Innovation, elementary school Principal. Let's just say Matt has done it all. Classroom teacher Professional development Specialist.
Matt has incredible insights on how to best support teaching and learning and led to a naturally published articles and opportunities to speak at multiple state and national events. I've gotten to know Matt over the years here being in Massachusetts at conferences at fvtc. I spoke on his podcast and it's a great honor to have Matt here with us on the newly formed Digital Kindness Podcast. Welcome Matt.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: No, I'm excited to be here and seeing the work that you're doing and feeling honored to be here, especially with some of the new projects I'm working on. I think I'm really excited to talk about it, continue to learn from you and in your work and share with your listeners. As you said, I wouldn't say I've done it all, but I've done a lot and I've experienced a lot, both positive and negative. And I think that's kind of led me into this kind of phase of sharing, being essentially on the back nine of my career, being fit 50 plus. Like what can I give back at this point to support others for some of the things I've seen and done and learned from.
[00:01:57] Speaker A: Nice, Nice. Well, I like the golf analogy there.
It is a major season here in the golf world, so it's been exciting to watch some golf.
So today we're going to really talk about. I have a copy here that you were very kind enough to send me here. Digital Explorers. Really excited about this book. I love the artwork. I love the fact that it is very relatable to I think what a lot of teachers deal with with dealing with technology in schools. It has the one part I really love is just these takeaways and these lessons that the kids experience throughout the book.
You know, think before you click, be careful about what you share online and protect personal information.
You know, it has the kids getting into relatable scenarios that I'm sure all kids experience when they first engage online, whether that's at home or in school.
And so I really liked it. And I have a one year old daughter and I can imagine myself going through this book with her, you know, in a few years when she starts to kind of think through and ask questions about technology. You know, can I have an iPad, can I have a phone? All these questions that parents are dealing with and in some cases what schools are dealing with on a day in and day out basis. So I honestly love the book and I also love where there. Yeah, yeah, there's. And there's you know, QR codes at the end where you can kind of click into further lessons about the book.
So why did you write this book? I love it, I really enjoy it and I think it's very timely. But I want to hear from you why you wrote this book.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: Well, one that's. I appreciate you saying that, you know, as you are someone who's a content creator as well. It, it's a risk putting things out there. You never, you know, know what people are going to say or think. So somebody I respect like you in the field, in the space, it means a lot. And I think for me my favorite job in this profession you've read a lot is I always love being a principal. That was, that was a job that I, I try to sell in central office replicate. I try to get into schools. I try to lead professional and I really, I identify as that kind of role. And I think one of the things that when why I wrote this the book is in the current role. The last nine years has been more in central office. But keeping that elementary lens is that is the foundation of our work and with all of the new technology that is coming and it's coming at rapid pace. I am someone who really promotes student voice. I'm somebody who wants students to use things. And some of the times that when you are a professional who promotes a lot of technical work and technology and apps and tools, you're often met with some resistance of like here are some of the fears and a lot of them are, are, are legitimate. And I want to mention that too. So I'm. The reason I wrote the book is I, I saw a need that a lot of our work and any of the like data privacy or social media was like middle school and above. Middle school and above. Middle school and above. Well why are we waiting till 6th grade? Do we start talking about this? Because we're seeing younger students using technology and it's not just the, it's not just phones, it's not just computers. They're on Xbox. There's they're on avenues that they can access the world and strangers just not to get scared about it. But so I wanted to put something together that was like I've done read alouds for elementary school. I am in elementary schools my whole life. I was an elementary teacher and then an elementary school principal. That is a group that I think is very fertile for learning. And it's also often a level that you're like, oh, let's not talk about it until you're in middle school. Well, we need to talk about it because it's reality. Or they're making, making movies now about video games. So why are we not talking about it? And I think you brought up the artwork. And when I met, when I met with. I did not illustrate it, but when I met with the illustrator. I love Pixar movies. I love the story of Pixar. I love the themes of. I said how can you make this? I don't want it to be AI, but I want you to do digital artwork that's like Pixar. So I'm hopeful that people think like, oh, looks like a little bit of Pixar because I think that gravitates to students. There's a comfort level there, there's a, a familiarity with that. So I think writing the book, I also have the cadence of a read aloud person or a librarian. I know that has that. So stopping every like four pages, like that's about the second graders level of paying attention. So let's, let's have something that we, we can, we can talk about. And that was where those lessons learned kind of came from of like, let's talk about this now. And that was, that's kind of the point of it. It's also for families because sadly sometimes schools get a bad rap. Like you're just putting our kids on, your kids on digital babysitters or you're just having too much tech. Well, when they go home, let's have these conversations too. Like how can we make this happen? How are we allowing students on, you know, Switch or any of these other tools that, that are out there and finding positive ways. And I also tried to make the, the examples not too complex. Like these are things that could happen across any platform.
[00:07:05] Speaker A: Yeah, no, and it's good and I think it's very timely. And I want to go back to something you said around.
A lot of the focus has been on middle school students. And having been a tech director, having been a classroom teacher, I get that like sixth grade is like the year when these kids just go crazy with technology and they push all the wrong buttons, literally and figuratively.
One thing I think we all learned is we also had this moment during the pandemic where kids were just thrown onto technology just kind of aimlessly to get by. We all had to do it, every school had to do it. And so I think it's important that we start to kind of, I think, reflect and process a little bit more about when we're bringing kids into these spaces and making sure we're doing it with the right pacing and with the right understanding not to bury our heads in the sand around technology and just ban technology and say we're not going to use it. I think it's important with a book like yours and Digital Explorers to have relatable content for both teachers, parents and students of kids at the elementary level who in some cases now, according to some of the data points out there, kids are getting cell phones, kids are getting iPads very early in their lives. Schools are still giving out in one to one programs.
So I think this is really an important topic to reinforce these topics, but also I think tell parents and teachers that we need to maybe just slow down a little bit and really focus on some of these essential skills of digital literacy and information literacy and digital wellbeing.
[00:08:54] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think building off of your work of digital kindness is it's not saying ban everything or shut everything or block it down. It's like, here's how we have to treat people in a digital space. One of the things I, you know, one of my hallmarks when I was, you know, early years of a principal for was really this, this digital communities. I said, I have two jobs, principals have two jobs. Make sure the kids have the best education possible and make sure they're safe in school. Those are my two jobs. Well, now I've added they have to be safe in school, both physically and digitally. And I think, you know, part of that was going back to why I wrote the book. And we're seeing technology everywhere now. And you go to a restaurant, you're not going to walk through a restaurant without seeing some kid on an iPad. I'm not questioning anybody's parenting. I'm just saying, let's talk about it. If that's going to be something that's used, fine, but something could pop up or a website or while you're in the restaurant says free dessert, click here. Whatever it is, it's going to be a part of it. And the way, you know, games, apps are built now and is very kind of game based Competitive. And that's, and that's okay. Like I'm starting to do the peloton and the competitive atmosphere that was like, oh, I want to get this streak I want to do. I mean, I'm 53 and I'm still, I saw that mindset. So a seven year old is going to have the same thing. I want the high score, I want to get the next level. So that's encouraging, but also having some discussion around, okay, here's the, you know, here's how long we can play. Or here, make sure you check with this or check the settings of, of all devices. So it's, it's trying to be encouraging but realistic.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I'm with you, Matt. I mean, if I see a pop up that says free to dirt on my phone, with all my expertise and all my knowledge, I'm still clicking that button like, you know, I mean, things aren't cheap these days. If you save free dessert, I'm totally in. I don't care if I get 42 other pop ups. Like, I'm all in.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Right.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: But no, you're right though. And I think it is, I think it's, you know, you and I both kind of came into the kind of schools around the time of, you know, one to one programs being rolled all over the place here in Massachusetts and across the country. And I think it was something now where we're looking at AI becoming more and more of a thing, you know, and I think about parents and what they're dealing with and you know, and, and fat and teachers, what they're dealing with, it's just, it's just almost like a pile on. And I think it's, it's, it's completely good for a school leader to say like, hey, we're gonna, we're going to, going to step back and reevaluate and reflect about our technology use, especially at the elementary level, just to make sure we're doing it right and we're getting it right. Because there's no, this isn't a race. Like, we don't need to.
This is a marathon, not a sprint. And so I think we need to really, you know, take that, take that to heart and think about how we're implementing technology, how we're using edtech across the board.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: No, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
So, Matt, you touch upon digital wellbeing, which is a topic I love talking about. I think it's something that we don't talk enough about in schools. I feel like there's a Lot of if there's. There's more reaction than proactive, you know, policies and procedures in schools and learning in schools around technology. So why the topic of digital wellbeing and why now?
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Well, I think we talk a lot about sometimes filling a need in our profession. Like where is a need? And sometimes things get oversaturated. Like there's a lot of work on that. And what I look for is how can I give back and fill a need. And one of the characters in the book, Ms. Mack, is actually based on my good friend Mary Alice Curran. And she did a lot of work with digital citizenship and she taught me. So we, we've been come really good friends and, and we've worked, you know, through that field. And one of the things she said to me recently was like, let's focus on more of the wellness side of it. Not just being good citizens, but being well with that. So this is about a year ago and it started to be piqued my interest like all right, that's interesting. And now in my current role that I oversee the technology for our whole, our whole district and we have about 13,000 students. And when I shifted from the assistant superintendent of teaching and learning to assist super native technology and learning, that's a big responsibility that I'm responsible for this. You know, many students, how can I ensure that they're, you know, get the best education possible and digitally safe at school. And I think I started to. To read a little bit more obviously becoming friends with you and learning about your work and a couple other of our friends are really focused on both the promotion of technology, but the realities of it. I saw an opportunity that I could get into to schools and share some ideas on how to support this, this wellness and, and how to, you know, have students feel safe to use some of these tools because sometimes you hear the. The horror stories or the fears and, and some of it is right. Sadly accurate. But at the same point there are so many things that students can flourish in or some learners learn differently. So when that's the case, we have to support those learners as well. From, you know, we have a whole pre K center how our earliest lear having that opportunity to feel safe online. So I think going down that path was for the first. First of it was me being a learner. I love when I get to learn things because it piques my interest, it drives me professionally. And as the more I started to learn some of the background reading your book, listening to other individuals talk about the wellness side of the technology, it piqued my interest. And I was like, how can I contribute? And that's where kind of the book came to light, was like, what. What can I do to support what are some of the things I do well? And being an elementary school teacher, being an elementary school principal, like, I think this could be a fit that isn't a, you know, a lecture or isn't like, don't do these. I, I don't like rules. I mean, I don't mean that in a negative way. I don't like the. Don't run, don't do this. Don't, like, let's focus on expectations, let's focus on reality. So it wasn't a scare tactic of like, these are the. These are the scary, dark things. It's like, these are going to happen. So. So why not talk about it and feel safe about it?
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I'm totally with you on that deal of rules. We, we came into schools, we had these acceptable use policies, and I never liked the language or demeanor or the tone of those policies. And so I think, you know, and especially with technology, we want kids to tinker. We want kids to explore. We want kids to. That's why I love, like, digital Explorers. Like, we don't want kids to, you know, follow a script. We want them to chart their own journey and explore through technology. That's ultimately what it's for. I think you and I are on the same page when we say, and we have seen students in our careers do really great things by leveraging technology, by leveraging their student voice.
When I was teaching at Burlington Public Schools, at the high school, I had a lot of students that went on to college or did stuff in the content creation space or blog or use technology to level up their voice and expand their voice and network and do stuff like that. And I think that's a really powerful thing. And the hard part now is that it's gotten a lot murkier as far as using technology in that kind of space and where is our audience and the saturation of things? So I'm also glad you brought up Mary Alice Kern, because I think she was someone I have always looked up to and have in the digital citizenship space. I think she's been talking about this for a long time. Back when I was doing Twitter chats in 2009, she was saying, we need to be creating responsible digital citizens. And I learned and I got a lot from her.
And it's really cool that Mrs. Mac is based off of her because I think she is someone that we all can go to. It's like hey, I have this issue with students and I'm not sure where to go. Like where can you go? So you know, how do you. I like the Ms. Mac character kind of the role of the tech savvy teacher who students can turn to for support and advice and you know, along their technology journey. So kind of in the context of a school where there may not be a mismac, you know, how do you see teachers and even school leaders introducing this to their schools or presenting some of this work around digital Explorers into, into their classroom practice?
[00:17:26] Speaker B: Sure. And just a quick note on Mary Alice and we'll move forward to get to that question because one of the things I like to do too is just to have fun with things. So there's a lot of Easter eggs in that book and Mac is essentially Mary Alice Curran. And for me it was just a lot of fun, fun to do that. And I think the ways that can, can be brought in is it's not something different. Like I know that schools have morning meetings. I know that they have read alouds. It's not a special let's go to the computer lab time and read this book. It's that this can be weaved into other books that have, have life lessons in it that learn about content. And my recommendation is to, is to talk about it and to have teachers read it. But I think there's two sides to this. Again, I started by saying I love being a principal. It's my favorite job and I operate in that lens. There also is a hidden message to some of our teachers who say sometimes that our kids can't do this or I'm afraid to have kids online. It's showing them not that Ms. Mac character that you're saying was not saying don't do this or let's be afraid. Like let's talk to the adults, let's be cautious and let's keep moving forward. And you know, at the end they make this presentation and they use technology for good. That's her big phrase, use technology for good. And I think it's the way schools can use it is continuing to promote the things that, that enhance students and having teachers versed enough to talk about it. And one of the things I learned both from being an elementary teacher and an elementary principal, you never know what kids are going to say. So you might ask them some of those questions that are in the book. They may come up with answers you would have never expected. And I think getting their voice and students voice as part of the discussion Might open some teachers eyes. They might say, oh, I would have never thought of that from a eight year old perspective. And you know, as somebody who in elementary school the difference between students and teachers is the largest age gap. So, so having that opportunity to hear from the students even in a very lighthearted conversation like that, it opens teachers eyes to like, wow, some of these kids are on video games all the time. Or wow, I could learn something from this student who could show me how to, to help me out. And I think just sharing with educators that students are versed in this world and they do need some guardrails but also need some support because they're still young and immature.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I love that and I love that you have that student voice piece throughout and I feel like that really comes through and that it shows that these students do have a lot of, you know, inquiry and innovative ideas and curiosity built within their being, which a lot of our, all of our students have. And I think just having that teacher, that support along the way, they don't have to be super tech savvy, they don't have to be a Ms. Mac. I think they can be any teacher that's out there. You know, I've always said the best one to one device is a really good, dynamic teacher. And I still believe that like in a classroom, you know, today.
So I want to kind of shift gears and we're going to wrap up soon here. I know we could talk all day pretty much and we have before. I think we've had talked all day, talked all night. I also want to make one comment. You're talking about Easter eggs. I love that Carl in the book wears the Go Bird shirt.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: I knew you would.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: I, I am a, I don't say it too broadly up here in Massachusetts. I couldn't for about, you know, 20 years during the Patriots dynasty. But I'm a huge Philadelphia Eagles fan and have been my entire life. And so I was really happy. I really connected with the character of Carl. I was like, I like that kid.
I think he should get an A plus and get all the technology he wants.
One of the reasons I started this podcast and wrote the book Teaching Digital Kindness was that I did a lot of reflecting, like I said earlier, and research on how technology was impacting students. We saw the stuff around, you know, the Surgeon General report came out in May of 2023, talking about what social media was doing to kids, teenagers particularly.
And then, you know, we had the Anxious Generation book come out, come out from Jonathan Haidt and all Of a sudden we see, you know, Oprah and everyone calling for cell phone bans. And you know, it's, it's happening. You're seeing states are doing it. And I've always believed in balance of technology. And I definitely think that in the digital explorers, I mean, these kids weren't just sitting around stationary, looking at a screen. So thinking about your role as an author and a principal and all you do, what do you think is the right balance of technology between home and school, but also at the elementary level?
[00:22:22] Speaker B: So I think, and that's a huge complex question, almost could be its own podcast. But one of the things that I share with staff, both at a school level and now, now at a district level, is to add technology last and, and plan the learning for students. Plan what you want students to learn. And if technology can enhance that learning, then it's a good place to use it. If it's just a 500 babysitter because you're doing math problems online, like don't do it. And you know, sometimes examples I just worked with, I worked with two, I'll give two examples. I know we're coming up on time, but one with the elementary school where they were stuck. We were stuck in some of the student writing. They were writing fables. So we did a canva project and we had all the students create characters with AI characters. They didn't spend their whole day on it, but they created characters. And when they saw their character come to life, they wrote just on actual paper for two days. They were so excited to bring those characters to life so that the technology enhanced their creativity, enhanced their learning. They didn't then just sit on type for two hours. They had the right. They eventually created a story about it. And then in high school they're having a debate and it was like, all right, frame your debate out first. We went through like post it notes, we put through some of your arguments, and then we created using some digital tools to create a free flowing kind of conversation. So it enhanced and brought the learning forward. So I guess my short answer is if it's going to enhance what students are learning or discovering, it's a wonderful tool. It's a wonderful avenue for discovery, for creativity. If there is, if it's planned with the technology in mind, it typically is not planned correctly, right?
[00:24:07] Speaker A: No. And I like that, I like that idea of technology should support and enhance and further the learning. It shouldn't be the driver of that. So I appreciate that answer.
Yeah, I realized when I wrote that question, I was like, that's a pretty long, detailed question. You're right. It could probably serve as its own podcast around how we balance technology even in our own lives. I mean, just thinking about how we do that.
So I want to end with a final question that I'm going to ask all my guests and all future guests.
What strategy do you use in your own life to step away from the digital world?
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Yeah, so I'm someone who likes to challenge myself, sometimes idiotically, by doing Spartan races and things that I shouldn't be doing plus 50. But for me, it keeps me grounded and I love public accountability and I love to do. Like now I'm really into being on the peloton and working out in that capacity. I'm going to start running a little bit again. I have the Boston run to remember coming up. And so I try to find things that I get to get outside or I get to work out in a capacity that keeps me active. It keeps me engaged in a community in some sense. A lot of things I do still is community based either through the peloton online or running. A race day in Boston is really excited for that. Or that I'm doing the Spartan race in September. So for me it's, it's stepping away, but also challenging myself because I know that drives me both professionally and personally. So I don't need, you know, I might have my phone to listen to music or I might, I love to take walks and anyone who sees me online knows I have a dog named Gizmo and we go for walks and I'll listen to a podcast. So I think just stepping away and living life has been. It actually helps me professionally to stay present when I'm, when I'm doing the work that I'm doing.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: That's awesome. That's awesome. And it's, you know, I think it's. And it goes along with the idea of, you know, digital wellbeing. I mean, digital wellbeing is, you know, we first have to be, well, ourselves and make sure we're treating ourselves with kindness and wellness so that we can help support others in that space and in that journey.
So thank you again, Matt.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Really appreciate it.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: Being on the pod today again, everyone. The book is the Digital Explorers. The Adventure Begins a digital well being journey. You can get it lots of places, Amazon, all the different places. Make sure you grab a copy. It's really great.
Matt, thank you again for being here on the Digital Kindness podcast and look forward to seeing your work down the road in the future.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Sounds good. Thanks for having me on and continue to learn from you and your work as well.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: All right. Thanks, buddy. Take care.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: See you.
